BIL was denied regulated purchase for Juvenile MH record

[good guy 176]

No. He has surrendered posession voluntarily. No one has yet come to confiscate.. when they do he will need s lawyer.

Voluntarly surrendering posession to a third party is not unlawful it is prudent and in fact the only way to comply with the law at this time.

Continued posession would be a crime however..

Ianal this guy needs one. Yesterday...

Edit to add

Esq points out a federal issue... do not ignore this...

Possession equates to ownership or title so the BIL still possesses the firearms even though he has given them to a third party.

 

[Dogmeat]

crazy to think that something that could have been done as a youth can come back to bite you 30 years later

While this particular situation has other problems, there was quite a bit of discussion on this shortly after the SB281 fiasco. IIRC everyone was being encouraged to make sure that any Juvi PBJs were expunged from their records or those might become disqualifying, at least for anyone under 30.

I hope for the best possible outcome for the BIL.

Dogmeat

 

[rseymorejr]

This site is monitored and sensitive, personal matters should not be disussed on any public forum. Your BIL is digging himself a major hole by pleading the 5th with the LEO today and by sending the regulated guns out of state. IANAL.

Really? Somehow asserting his constitutional rights are "digging a hole". I guess "if he has nothing to hide...."

Anything that he says, beyond "nice day today, isn't it" will come back to bite him in the ass. The only word he should say in the presence of the police at this point is "Lawyer"

 

[Mooseman]

As a lawyer, I am telling you to tell him to get a lawyer IMMEDIATELY.

Here's what to do in the meantime:

1. Cease all discussions on the internet immediately.

I was involved in a situation earlier this year. That was the first thing my companies lawyers told me. They said not to discuss the situation with anybody but my spouse, clergy or legal team.

 

[Brooklyn]

Posession equates to ownership or title so the BIL still possesses the firearms even though he has given them to a third party.

No posession does not imply ownership. A possession charge does not require a showing of ownership. Nor does ownership imply posession..

A ban on ownership would still be an issue.. but st least it us not compounded by posession.. in general a newly prohibited person may arange for lawful transfer other than forfeiture.

So. nothing gets worse by surrendering posession. Transfer of ownership takes at least 7 days in Md. During which time procession would in fact make it worse.

Transfer of posession with the intent ending unlawful activity is not unlawful in itself. Now the rest is up to the court..

 

[TapRackBang]

Hence why I will NEVER seek out mental health care.

...Under my real name or pay for it with anything other than cash.

"Sir, what's your name?"

"Michael Bloomberg, and I'm crazy."

 

[esqappellate]

I figured there could be some federal issues, was just pointing out the MD angle.
so does that section apply any point in time without limitations? such as something in a juvi record?

crazy to think that something that could have been done as a youth can come back to bite you 30 years later

I won't opine on these particular facts but observe only that facts matter, which is one reason (among many) why folks should consult counsel. See, e.g., United States v. Rehlander, 666 F.3d 45 (1st Cir. 2012) and 27 CFR § 478.11 ("Committed to a mental institution. A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.").

 

[StantonCree]

Screw popcorn someone get me a sandwich and a case of beer for this thread!!!

 

[fred2207]

As a lawyer, I am telling you to tell him to get a lawyer IMMEDIATELY.

Here's what to do in the meantime:

1. Cease all discussions on the internet immediately.

2. Cease all discussions regarding the matter immediately and inform your BIL of same.

3. Allow police to search only of they present a warrant. Do not invite them inside and do not speak to them voluntarily. If they invite him to the station, he should decline even if it seems like the police want to help him.

4. If he is arrested, he should assert his right to remain silent and he should demand to speak to his attorney before answering any questions.

Lawyer up, it's the right thing to do!

Also, the "juvenile records" cite applies if he was charged as a juvenile. It's possible he was charged as an adult. Please don't share whether he was charged as a juvenile or adult.

What he advises, bolded, with exclamation!!! Get a lawyer now---don't wait!!!

 

[kohburn]

I won't opine on these particular facts but observe only that facts matter, which is one reason (among many) why folks should consult counsel. See, e.g., United States v. Rehlander, 666 F.3d 45 (1st Cir. 2012) and 27 CFR § 478.11 ("Committed to a mental institution. A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as for drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.").

i knew that the "mental health" aspect of gun control was dangerous, but didn't realize that it was quite this broad.

 

[fred2207]

That was my point. The FFL being necessary.

For transfer/sale out of state, yes a FFL is needed, but not for weapon storage out of state. Once a weapon is stored out of the state of MD, MD law does not apply to possession of that weapon until the weapon is returned to MD, in someone's possession...

 

[Docster]

...Under my real name or pay for it with anything other than cash.

"Sir, what's your name?"

"Michael Bloomberg, and I'm crazy."

Best to say, '.....and I'M NOT CRAZY!!". That always gets a better response at a mental institution.....

 

[mtnwisdom]

As a lawyer, I am telling you to tell him to get a lawyer IMMEDIATELY. Here's what to do in the meantime: 1. Cease all discussions on the internet immediately. 2. Cease all discussions regarding the matter immediately and inform your BIL of same. 3. Allow police to search only of they present a warrant. Do not invite them inside and do not speak to them voluntarily. If they invite him to the station, he should decline even if it seems like the police want to help him. 4. If he is arrested, he should assert his right to remain silent and he should demand to speak to his attorney before answering any questions. Lawyer up, it's the right thing to do! Also, the "juvenile records" cite applies if he was charged as a juvenile. It's possible he was charged as an adult. Please don't share whether he was charged as a juvenile or adult.

Tagged your reply just so it could be read again... Wise words.

Just as my attorney says, remember K Y B M S

Keep Your Big Mouth Shut

 

[mtnwisdom]

My BIL was denied a pre October 1st ar reciever that was PO'ed. Here is the story. Call my sister yesterday and in conversation she told me he was denied. I ask if he called the State Police because it is very bad to be denied. She said no and the FFL dealer said that an investigator would call him, this happened a week ago. I told her he better call in the morning. He call's today and get a lady, she ask if he has ever been hospitalized, he says "no". She stops the conversation and tells him he will be getting a call from an officer. He gets a call latter from the officer. Officer tells him they know about the hospital stay when he was 14 and that he needed to turn over his other regulated guns. BIL tells him no and pleads the 5th. Conversation ends with officer stating they will be back in touch soon. My BIL was hooked on drugs and did some things he should not of done while he was a juvenile. Judge sent him to Crownsville for a while, longer than 30 days, he is now 42. He has bought an AK and a handgun with no problems in the past. Does anyone know what is coming next, what law did he break, is this part of the new law? Anyone know the name of a good lawyer? All guns are removed from the home and are no longer even in this state.

I am really glad that you brought this subject to light in the forum, but i really think it should have been presented as a hypothetical-wink, wink....

 

[good guy 176]

No posession does not imply ownership. A possession charge does not require a showing of ownership. Nor does ownership imply posession..

A ban on ownership would still be an issue.. but st least it us not compounded by posession.. in general a newly prohibited person may arange for lawful transfer other than forfeiture.

So. nothing gets worse by surrendering posession. Transfer of ownership takes at least 7 days in Md. During which time procession would in fact make it worse.

Transfer of posession with the intent ending unlawful activity is not unlawful in itself. Now the rest is up to the court..

Possession encompasses both lawful and unlawful possession (according to Merriam-Webster) of a firearm and well might be the reason why MSP chose to use the term instead of ownership. Transferring physical control of MD regulated firearms to a third party is likely illegal, IF the intent was to avoid confiscation. And, as esqappellate pointed out, transfer across state boundaries has Federal implications if performed by someone who had been deemed incompetent. Furthermore, we don't know if the mental health questions on the 77Rs were answered correctly nor are we privvy to numerous other facts. I would surmise that mistakes were made by the MSP and the BIL and that the attorney(s) will help sort them out. Everyone wants a happy ending for the subject in this matter.

 

[jmike1487]

Screw popcorn someone get me a sandwich and a case of beer for this thread!!!

Check


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Brooklyn]

Possession encompasses both lawful and unlawful possession (according to Merriam-Webster) of a firearm and well might be the reason why MSP chose to use the term instead of ownership. Transferring control of MD regulated firearms to a third party is likely illegal, IF the intent was to avoid confiscation. And, as esqappellate pointed out, transfer across state boundaries has Federal implications if performed by someone who had been deemed incompetent. Furthermore, we don't know if the mental health questions on the 77Rs were answered correctly nor are we privvy to numerous other facts. I would surmise that mistakes were made by the MSP and the BIL and that the attorney(s) will help sort them out. Everyone wants a happy ending for the subject in this matter.

First no transfer was attempted as far as I know. Second all we know is that the guns are out of state. The principle is not. That means no control and therefore no posession.. you can not transfer a gun out of state with out an ffl. Now what if the guns are logged into a gunsmith for cleaning... no transfer and proof that the principle has no posession.

Now what if they are stored by a non prohibited person? No transfer. Unlawful - not that I can see.

A lot of speculation will lead to a possible unlawful act. But its not clear and its not automatic.. only an assumption of bad faith gets us there. My bet is no such occurred.. certainly no evidence of that is provided..

 

[Arcamm]

Tagged your reply just so it could be read again... Wise words.

Just as my attorney says, remember K Y B M S

Keep Your Big Mouth Shut

All of the voices in my head agree with this! And they never agree on anything?

 

[Xander]

As a lawyer, I am telling you to tell him to get a lawyer IMMEDIATELY.

Here's what to do in the meantime:

1. Cease all discussions on the internet immediately.

2. Cease all discussions regarding the matter immediately and inform your BIL of same.

3. Allow police to search only of they present a warrant. Do not invite them inside and do not speak to them voluntarily. If they invite him to the station, he should decline even if it seems like the police want to help him.

4. If he is arrested, he should assert his right to remain silent and he should demand to speak to his attorney before answering any questions.

Lawyer up, it's the right thing to do!

Also, the "juvenile records" cite applies if he was charged as a juvenile. It's possible he was charged as an adult. Please don't share whether he was charged as a juvenile or adult.

This x1000

 

[JettaRed]

Enough people have said to "Shut up!" Perhaps a moderator should just delete this thread.