Barrel nut

[trickg]

Extension was dry no loc tite or rock set, a tiny bit of corrosion at the band but not enough to lock it. I have removed alot of barrel nut some easy some not so much. But I have never ever had one locked this tight.

Were the threads on the receiver and barrel nut dry? Everything I've seen and read says you should use Aeroshell grease on those, or at least some kind of lubricant. (I've wondered if Valvoline bearing grease for Fords with moly would work - I have a whole tub of that, but I have Aeroshell for stuff like this.)

 

[alucard0822]

I had a SRR . And I'm not blaming anyone for the damage that is on me . I'm blaming Bear Creek for over torqueing. Standard torque is 35 to 80 ft lbs, and this one was way over that . And this is not the first time I've seen problems with Bear Creek products come thru the shop .

BCA, Radical and a few others flat out suck, and situations like this are part of the reason why. They often use mis-spec'ed receivers, some in 6065, over torqued, no lube, poor fit, and either under or over torqued. Have had some where the nut was just barely hand tight, others like yours where I thought it would be damaged and had to heat up the nut and tap the wrench to get it off. When there is no lube, the nut can seize to the barrel extension, and turning the nut in a fixture holding the upper will usually break the upper, but not the pin, using a reaction rod will break the pin, but not the upper, the MI URR usually has the best chance of avoiding either, but it really shouldn't be needed to take apart a properly built upper. I have seen so many problems with their stuff, and sometimes PSA too, but PSA at least has better customer service.

 

[smokey]

Did you loosen these guys? Also, the index pin moving metal off to the bolt catch side suggests overtorquing the piss out of it without a reaction rod engaging the lugs. Did you use a reaction rod on the lugs? Also, did you crank the wrong way by mistake?

 

[clandestine]

For those reading a Geissele Reaction Rod or similar tool without the sail can cause damage to both the index pin on the barrel extension and/or the upper receiver.

Don't let someone tell you it can't happen if you use the Reaction Rod because I see it all the time. I have buckets of broken parts from customers and students that used the RR and broke things.

The Midwest URR has a sail and minimizes risk of breaking parts.

Best of luck

 

[Overwatcher]

Did you loosen these guys? Also, the index pin moving metal off to the bolt catch side suggests overtorquing the piss out of it without a reaction rod engaging the lugs. Did you use a reaction rod on the lugs? Also, did you crank

Did you loosen these guys? Also, the index pin moving metal off to the bolt catch side suggests overtorquing the piss out of it without a reaction rod engaging the lugs. Did you use a reaction rod on the lugs? Also, did you crank the wrong way by mistake?

They were put back in after the fact, so I didn't lose them . Super reaction rod used and no.

 

[trickg]

BCA, Radical and a few others flat out suck, and situations like this are part of the reason why. They often use mis-spec'ed receivers, some in 6065, over torqued, no lube, poor fit, and either under or over torqued. Have had some where the nut was just barely hand tight, others like yours where I thought it would be damaged and had to heat up the nut and tap the wrench to get it off. When there is no lube, the nut can seize to the barrel extension, and turning the nut in a fixture holding the upper will usually break the upper, but not the pin, using a reaction rod will break the pin, but not the upper, the MI URR usually has the best chance of avoiding either, but it really shouldn't be needed to take apart a properly built upper. I have seen so many problems with their stuff, and sometimes PSA too, but PSA at least has better customer service.

So here's a question: WHY do those companies flat out suck? It seems to me that there's a correct way to assemble an AR Upper, so why do companies like that flagrantly ignore that process and put stuff together incorrectly? I'm a total noob, but I've learned enough to know that you don't install a barrel dry. ANY lubricant would almost be better than installing the barrel completely dry.

I've read in forums how some guys won't put lubrication on the barrel extension - they seem to think that a dry fit helps to keep it from moving once it gets hot, but I've never seen anyone who suggests torquing a barrel nut down without lubricant of some kind - Aeroshell 33MS seems to be the generally accepted grease for this. I've also read that the torque range - 30-80 lbs - is so that there's an acceptable range in order to get the barrel nut aligned/timed with the gas tube. For barrel nuts that don't have to be timed, I've read that 35-45 lbs is more than enough - it would seem that you don't need crushing torque. I've read other things that suggest that torque also plays into accuracy, but I don't want to get ahead of myself - again, I'm a noob, so my knowledge is pretty limited.

It just seems surprising to me that for a company that does this kind of work specifically that they don't take more care to do it correctly.

 

[jrumann59]

So here's a question: WHY do those companies flat out suck? It seems to me that there's a correct way to assemble an AR Upper, so why do companies like that flagrantly ignore that process and put stuff together incorrectly? I'm a total noob, but I've learned enough to know that you don't install a barrel dry. ANY lubricant would almost be better than installing the barrel completely dry.

I've read in forums how some guys won't put lubrication on the barrel extension - they seem to think that a dry fit helps to keep it from moving once it gets hot, but I've never seen anyone who suggests torquing a barrel nut down without lubricant of some kind - Aeroshell 33MS seems to be the generally accepted grease for this. I've also read that the torque range - 30-80 lbs - is so that there's an acceptable range in order to get the barrel nut aligned/timed with the gas tube. For barrel nuts that don't have to be timed, I've read that 35-45 lbs is more than enough - it would seem that you don't need crushing torque. I've read other things that suggest that torque also plays into accuracy, but I don't want to get ahead of myself - again, I'm a noob, so my knowledge is pretty limited.

It just seems surprising to me that for a company that does this kind of work specifically that they don't take more care to do it correctly.

When trying to be cost competitive companies will cut corners and more often than not their corner cutting is revealed so far down the road it is easy to point to a multitude of other things. Hence why many use "recommend a proper gunsmith to do X"

 

[smokey]

Damn that sucks. Twist that bitch back on and send it back, saying you had trouble getting it off. They must've cranked it pretty hard to jack it up like that.

 

[DutchV]

So here's a question: WHY do those companies flat out suck? It seems to me that there's a correct way to assemble an AR Upper, so why do companies like that flagrantly ignore that process and put stuff together incorrectly? I'm a total noob, but I've learned enough to know that you don't install a barrel dry. ANY lubricant would almost be better than installing the barrel completely dry.

I've read in forums how some guys won't put lubrication on the barrel extension - they seem to think that a dry fit helps to keep it from moving once it gets hot, but I've never seen anyone who suggests torquing a barrel nut down without lubricant of some kind - Aeroshell 33MS seems to be the generally accepted grease for this. I've also read that the torque range - 30-80 lbs - is so that there's an acceptable range in order to get the barrel nut aligned/timed with the gas tube. For barrel nuts that don't have to be timed, I've read that 35-45 lbs is more than enough - it would seem that you don't need crushing torque. I've read other things that suggest that torque also plays into accuracy, but I don't want to get ahead of myself - again, I'm a noob, so my knowledge is pretty limited.

It just seems surprising to me that for a company that does this kind of work specifically that they don't take more care to do it correctly.

You're right, a torque wrench and a tub of grease shouldn't be too much to ask. Of course, if you only hire the cheapest staff, and you don't care about your customers, then you get BCA-level quality. They're competing on price alone, and hoping you don't spot the difference between "BCA" and "BCM".

This is why a lot of us do it ourselves. You only have to buy the tools and gauges once.

 

[alucard0822]

So here's a question: WHY do those companies flat out suck? It seems to me that there's a correct way to assemble an AR Upper, so why do companies like that flagrantly ignore that process and put stuff together incorrectly? I'm a total noob, but I've learned enough to know that you don't install a barrel dry. ANY lubricant would almost be better than installing the barrel completely dry.

I've read in forums how some guys won't put lubrication on the barrel extension - they seem to think that a dry fit helps to keep it from moving once it gets hot, but I've never seen anyone who suggests torquing a barrel nut down without lubricant of some kind - Aeroshell 33MS seems to be the generally accepted grease for this. I've also read that the torque range - 30-80 lbs - is so that there's an acceptable range in order to get the barrel nut aligned/timed with the gas tube. For barrel nuts that don't have to be timed, I've read that 35-45 lbs is more than enough - it would seem that you don't need crushing torque. I've read other things that suggest that torque also plays into accuracy, but I don't want to get ahead of myself - again, I'm a noob, so my knowledge is pretty limited.

It just seems surprising to me that for a company that does this kind of work specifically that they don't take more care to do it correctly.

Cost definitely plays a part, cutting corners on processes, materials etc. Figure they probably have worn out torque wrenches that haven't been calibrated in years, hand tight, bump it then check, then crank it till the holes/tube inlet lines up, and send it on it's way. If they do use grease probably just a small dot in one spot that doesn't really serve it's purpose. Takes time to use the right grease in the right place, torque to seat, then back off and torque again, then shim, then make sure the tube port or handguard mount holes are centered. Figure the 2-3X it takes to do it right costs more right there, and takes more skill with more training, all obstacles when your market just wants a sub $500 AR15 to shoot a couple times a year.

 

[trickg]

Cost definitely plays a part, cutting corners on processes, materials etc. Figure they probably have worn out torque wrenches that haven't been calibrated in years, hand tight, bump it then check, then crank it till the holes/tube inlet lines up, and send it on it's way. If they do use grease probably just a small dot in one spot that doesn't really serve it's purpose. Takes time to use the right grease in the right place, torque to seat, then back off and torque again, then shim, then make sure the tube port or handguard mount holes are centered. Figure the 2-3X it takes to do it right costs more right there, and takes more skill with more training, all obstacles when your market just wants a sub $500 AR15 to shoot a couple times a year.

I suppose, but damn, where is the pride of craftsmanship? I mean, for someone who knows what they're doing - assuming they are doing this for their job/livelihood - does it really take that much more time and materials to make sure it's done correctly?

 

[alucard0822]

I suppose, but damn, where is the pride of craftsmanship? I mean, for someone who knows what they're doing - assuming they are doing this for their job/livelihood - does it really take that much more time and materials to make sure it's done correctly?

they work at BCM

 

[teratos]

they work at BCM

Truth. I think BCA got busted employing illegals a few years back.

Edit: yep.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.newsobserver.com/news/state/north-carolina/article225554780.html

 

[trickg]

they work at BCM

I was reading about various barrel companies and found an article about BCA barrels. The gist of the article was to ascertain whether or not a good value could be had from a budget level barrel from BCA. Nope. It ended up getting better as it broke in and after they'd fiddled with it some, but on installation it was pretty awful - we're talking 5+ inch groups at 100 yards.

Conversely, I've had very good luck with a Faxon barrel on a build I did recently. My son and I were both doing 20 shot groups that would fit inside of a quarter at 50 yards, (with the occasional flyer - it seemed like if we did our part, the gun would do its part) and that was just sort of blasting away with 55 gr range ammo.

I'm getting ready to do another build with Ballistic Advantage barrel and I'm curious to see how it will stack up.

 

[teratos]

I was reading about various barrel companies and found an article about BCA barrels. The gist of the article was to ascertain whether or not a good value could be had from a budget level barrel from BCA. Nope. It ended up getting better as it broke in and after they'd fiddled with it some, but on installation it was pretty awful - we're talking 5+ inch groups at 100 yards.

Conversely, I've had very good luck with a Faxon barrel on a build I did recently. My son and I were both doing 20 shot groups that would fit inside of a quarter at 50 yards, (with the occasional flyer - it seemed like if we did our part, the gun would do its part) and that was just sort of blasting away with 55 gr range ammo.

I'm getting ready to do another build with Ballistic Advantage barrel and I'm curious to see how it will stack up.

I’ve had good luck with Faxon and Ballistic Advantage barrels. I’ve got a couple of each.

 

[outrider58]

Damn that sucks. Twist that bitch back on and send it back, saying you had trouble getting it off. They must've cranked it pretty hard to jack it up like that.

Especially considering that barrel nut doesn't even require 'clocking'. They put that thing on "farm tight"!
I no longer use barrel nuts/rails that require clocking and I torque to just under 40 ft/lbs along with Aeroshell. No reason to go any tighter than that in normal circumstances.

 

[alucard0822]

I was reading about various barrel companies and found an article about BCA barrels. The gist of the article was to ascertain whether or not a good value could be had from a budget level barrel from BCA. Nope. It ended up getting better as it broke in and after they'd fiddled with it some, but on installation it was pretty awful - we're talking 5+ inch groups at 100 yards.

Conversely, I've had very good luck with a Faxon barrel on a build I did recently. My son and I were both doing 20 shot groups that would fit inside of a quarter at 50 yards, (with the occasional flyer - it seemed like if we did our part, the gun would do its part) and that was just sort of blasting away with 55 gr range ammo.

I'm getting ready to do another build with Ballistic Advantage barrel and I'm curious to see how it will stack up.

Have built a few dozen with BA and Faxon barrels, they are comparable for the most part, and generally good. For me they are my "budget" barrels being they work without a problem, can put up nice groups, and have decent cost savings when it doesn't make sense to use something else. IMO Criterion is probably the best defensive and mid-line barrel, and I like Rainier Ultramatch or Proof Research if I want a precision build. The difference being Criterion with it's chrome lining and true mil-spec has some advantages in bad conditions. Rainier/PR might not really put up better groups than Faxon's match or a BA Hanson, but they are more consistent as they heat, cool, get dirty etc, and typically where the Faxon/BA barrels might do awesome with one or two loads, the better barrels seem to shoot great with a wider range of loads and minor differences like OAL or powder charge. Of course BCA usually results in the need for a better barrel, or at least return postage, and "upgrading" costs more than just getting a decent barrel in the first place.

 

[atblis]

You should always try some heat. A few heat cycles will often break things loose, especially with dissimilar expansion coefficients.

 

[WolfPlayer]

I torque to just under 40 ft/lbs along with Aeroshell. No reason to go any tighter than that in normal circumstances.

Start at 47 ft/lbs for a heavy barrel and 60 ft/lbs for a rack grade barrel.

 

[outrider58]

Start at 47 ft/lbs for a heavy barrel and 60 ft/lbs for a rack grade barrel.

A couple points come to mind, never did he recommend a torque setting for the muzzle device. That can actually be more important than the torque setting of the barrel nut when considering barrel stress. Using "Locktite" on the muzzle device has proven not to be the best application for setting MDs.

The process I've been using for the last few years are as follows:
First step is truing the receiver extension where the barrel is to mount. If a thermal fit is require, I heat the upper receiver first. Once I've trued the face of the extension, I will dry fit the barrel and hand tighten the barrel nut just to make sure everything is in order. I then remove the barrel and apply a smooth coating of Locktite 602 to the the barrel extension. As I push the barrel into the receiver, I turn the barrel one revolution as it slides inward and then into the the clocking notch. I make sure there is no excess Locktite showing anywhere at the junction. Next, I apply several dabs of Aeroshell 33 grease to the receiver extension, then hand tighten the barrel nut. Next I give three tightening and loosenings of the barrel nut to help mate the threads between the nut and extension. Finally, I crank the barrel nut to my desired value and I'm finished.

Everyone has their own experience and preferred methods and I'm not knocking the method you provided and I don't shoot matches, but so far, I've been very happy with my results. All my ARs shoot sub-MOA from 10.5" SBRs to 20" rifles.