AGC

[dist1646]

The premise that the range can run on volunteers and $100 a year memberships is crazy, IMHO. Property upkeep alone is a huge bill, and given some behaviors I've seen on that range, full-time RSOs are a necessity. When there's like four dudes on the range, yes, people can police themselves, but when it's 40, that's not realistic.

I have ran the numbers and the increase far outpaces any claim of the need due to inflation.

 

[erwos]

I have ran the numbers and the increase far outpaces any claim of the need due to inflation.

Not from the numbers I've heard from people who would know over there.

 

[Sundazes]

Here we go again. Back when the houses were bought, the range fee was tripled from $50 to $150 a year with the express purpose of paying off the mortgages. Here we are 30 years later and we still have the mortgages. And now, facing yet another badge increase. Amazing.
BTW I was a member when the houses were purchased.
Glad I bought a 15 year badge.

 

[mcbruzdzinski]

My information came from our club president. The AGC has a long history of being fiscally irresponsible! Any increase is simply to pay for the waste due to mismanagement of the facility. We used to keep costs down by doing work through volunteers but, the rulers decided to pay instead of saving money. The board also violated the vote of the trustees when they failed to pay off the mortgages on the two properties previously purchased, in accordance with the vote of the board of trustees. I know this for a fact, since I was on the board at the time the vote to purchase was taken. The badge fees were supposed to be lowered once the mortgage was paid off but, again mismanagement ruled and the fee was not lowered. It was subsequently increased, without justification, to $200. Every project they have done has run over on cost due to mismanagement. There are those who would continue to support the level of arrogance, and mismanagement that continues to exist at the AGC. I am not one of them.

Not to mention we have not seen a financial statement from the treasurer for almost two years. Hard to justify to members when there is no real accounting for the revenues and expenditures just a set of rough estimates. Unfortunately, the AGC has elected treasurers who have failed to take responsibility for the accounting system that was set up several years ago.

 

[Stoveman]

Not to mention we have not seen a financial statement from the treasurer for almost two years. Hard to justify to members when there is no real accounting for the revenues and expenditures just a set of rough estimates. Unfortunately, the AGC has elected treasurers who have failed to take responsibility for the accounting system that was set up several years ago.

So which is it?

Hard to fathom that the treasurer's report shows that Action Shooting is losing money if there have been no financial statements for almost two years.

The new AGC president seems to be trying his best. But AGC has serious problems with governance and fiscal responsibility that go back 6 or 7 years before he took office.

The 15 year badge idea was a boon to badge holders but fiscally irresponsible. It will cost AGC in excess of 100K in lost revenue over the 15 years. It isn't like they put it toward the mortgage, it went to build the action ranges and if you can believe the treasurer's reports the action ranges are losing money. So all the badge holders are subsidizing the non-badge holders / non-AGC members who use the action ranges. A sharp increase in guest fees has been proposed. Is there a plan to raise fees for the action shooting events so they are not a money drain on AGC?

Yes, inflation is real; but a little more transparency would go a long way. How about asking the rank and file badge holders what they want? Most have no idea what is going on or why. Fee increases are a lot easier to accept when you know the whole story and where the money is going and why.

Not opposed but skeptical that things will change.

 

[Stoveman]

I'm certainly not privy to any financials but I find it hard to believe that having four action shooting events a month, USPSA, IDPA, Falling Steel and Three Gun, that we didn't have three years ago are losing money.

Falling Steel and USPSA are crazy popular, last month we had almost 100 guns registered for a Falling Steel match.

Assuming that half were not members that's still a 50% increase in match fees vs if these same people were paying the guest price. And frankly a lot of people that shoot in these matches are shooting at AGC because of the action shooting and wouldn't darken the door (and pay the guest fee) to static shoot at paper.

IMO the future of AGC is more action shooting and less putting holes in paper.

 

[Occam]

IMO the future of AGC is more action shooting and less putting holes in paper.

This is self evident to anyone who visits both ends of the facility and actually watches what happens, and with what degree of enthusiasm. There are and will always be folks who enjoy the zen-like delivery of super-accurate groups a hundred yards away, shooting at a sedate, deliberate, no-pressure pace. But that can't compete (especially for attracting a new generation of younger shooters - something AGC and Maryland more generally desperately needs) with the huge growth in the pew-ping-clang sports.

I had a chat with the owner of a steel target company, and he's dumbfounded at the growth in his sales. Not just plates, but fancy-pants twirly rigs and all sorts of other entertaining toys. The more AGC makes that kind of fun available, non-mysterious to noobs, and otherwise friendly to folks tired of shooting staple guns more than rifles, it will prosper. Whatever the club has tied up in sheds, steel, 2x4s, gravel and everything else that makes the action bays go, it will pay itself back in spades over time.

I'm thinking bay seven really wants to be a shoot house, am I right?

 

[Stoveman]

This is self evident to anyone who visits both ends of the facility and actually watches what happens, and with what degree of enthusiasm. There are and will always be folks who enjoy the zen-like delivery of super-accurate groups a hundred yards away, shooting at a sedate, deliberate, no-pressure pace. But that can't compete (especially for attracting a new generation of younger shooters - something AGC and Maryland more generally desperately needs) with the huge growth in the pew-ping-clang sports.

I had a chat with the owner of a steel target company, and he's dumbfounded at the growth in his sales. Not just plates, but fancy-pants twirly rigs and all sorts of other entertaining toys. The more AGC makes that kind of fun available, non-mysterious to noobs, and otherwise friendly to folks tired of shooting staple guns more than rifles, it will prosper. Whatever the club has tied up in sheds, steel, 2x4s, gravel and everything else that makes the action bays go, it will pay itself back in spades over time.

I'm thinking bay seven really wants to be a shoot house, am I right?

Bay seven might be a little small for a shoot house but I like how you think.

Being intimately involved in the starting of both Falling Steel (originally Steel Challenge) and USPSA, I know that the first match attendance guesstimates were very low because no one knew what kind of demand there was for this type of shooting.

Both of the inaugural Falling Steel and USPSA matches were sold out and routinely max out at whatever amount of shooters the match director has enough RSOs to run squads. And do it in 10 degree weather. I can guarantee that there were more people shooting steel at the January match than there were on all of the other ranges combined.

And because of the action shooting bays we were able to generate $125K for the Gold Star Teens charity last September, something to my knowledge has never been done before by the holes in paper crowd.

 

[dist1646]

Not from the numbers I've heard from people who would know over there.

Those people are pushing an agenda. I am not.

 

[dist1646]

Not to mention we have not seen a financial statement from the treasurer for almost two years. Hard to justify to members when there is no real accounting for the revenues and expenditures just a set of rough estimates. Unfortunately, the AGC has elected treasurers who have failed to take responsibility for the accounting system that was set up several years ago.

More proof that what I am saying is the truth.

 

[tjiann]

As a new AGC member this year (and presently more of an old school rifle and pistol paper target shooter), I really think the facility and setting is great. Well worth the $200 I paid for this year, and I won't have a problem paying $250 next year. I can't comment on history or fiscal management of the club, but I feel like what I personally am getting for the cost is well worth it. Ability/freedom to shoot all my rifles, pistols, shotgun/trap in one location. Meeting some great folks with similar interests (between AGC and MDS) and learning a lot from them. The overall annual cost is similar to a couple of nights of dinner/drinks out at a restaurant here in Annapolis. I can live with that. I've spent more money on less rewarding things many times in my life. Just my two cents from a new member perspective.

 

[JohnnyE]

I'm certainly not privy to any financials but I find it hard to believe that having four action shooting events a month, USPSA, IDPA, Falling Steel and Three Gun, that we didn't have three years ago are losing money.

Falling Steel and USPSA are crazy popular, last month we had almost 100 guns registered for a Falling Steel match.

Assuming that half were not members that's still a 50% increase in match fees vs if these same people were paying the guest price. And frankly a lot of people that shoot in these matches are shooting at AGC because of the action shooting and wouldn't darken the door (and pay the guest fee) to static shoot at paper.

IMO the future of AGC is more action shooting and less putting holes in paper.

I have to really agree with your last sentence.

The way I see it is, since everyone already has to be a member of a gun club in order to get an AGC badge, and those clubs likely offers the opportunity to put holes in paper, folks get an AGC badge to do something more than that.

At my "home" club I can punch paper from 7 to 300 yards, plus shoot skeet and trap. That's not terribly interesting after a while. Why did I get an AGC badge? Action shooting and somewhere nice to shoot full auto, thing I cannot do at my "home" club.

 

[Uncle Duke]

I have to really agree with your last sentence.

The way I see it is, since everyone already has to be a member of a gun club in order to get an AGC badge, and those clubs likely offers the opportunity to put holes in paper, folks get an AGC badge to do something more than that.

At my "home" club I can punch paper from 7 to 300 yards, plus shoot skeet and trap. That's not terribly interesting after a while. Why did I get an AGC badge? Action shooting and somewhere nice to shoot full auto, thing I cannot do at my "home" club.

Sounds like your home club has a range. Most AGC affiliated clubs do not. They have availability of the AGC range only.

AGC needs both action shooting and hole punching IMO. And the last thing that AGC needs is to have factions or tunnel vision develop, with regard to which shooting disciplines to support.

 

[redsandman6]

Sounds like your home club has a range. Most AGC affiliated clubs do not. They have availability of the AGC range only.

AGC needs both action shooting and hole punching IMO. And the last thing that AGC needs is to have factions or tunnel vision develop, with regard to which shooting disciplines to support.

I agree. imo the problem is not action shooting vs static shooting, its transparency with funds. prices go up on everything, i think we all get that. but where is the money going. some of people including myself have questions. I have seen money spent on good projects and bad projects. I would like to see some numbers before we just raise fees and say its for the good of the range or inflation or whatever other reason. i have no problems with paying more. I don't want to see the money wasted.

 

[Uncle Duke]

I agree. imo the problem is not action shooting vs static shooting, its transparency with funds. prices go up on everything, i think we all get that. but where is the money going. some of people including myself have questions. I have seen money spent on good projects and bad projects. I would like to see some numbers before we just raise fees and say its for the good of the range or inflation or whatever other reason. i have no problems with paying more. I don't want to see the money wasted.

On those points, I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[ericoak]

When I was in Atlanta, I couldn't find an outdoor range within an hour that was less than like $400. And those weren't in the same ballpark as AGC.

 

[Squaregrouper]

I'm certainly not privy to any financials but I find it hard to believe that having four action shooting events a month, USPSA, IDPA, Falling Steel and Three Gun, that we didn't have three years ago are losing money.

Falling Steel and USPSA are crazy popular, last month we had almost 100 guns registered for a Falling Steel match.

Assuming that half were not members that's still a 50% increase in match fees vs if these same people were paying the guest price. And frankly a lot of people that shoot in these matches are shooting at AGC because of the action shooting and wouldn't darken the door (and pay the guest fee) to static shoot at paper.

IMO the future of AGC is more action shooting and less putting holes in paper.

I agree with you.
I do, however, believe the entry fee for non members should be increased and/or members should have access to sign up for the events prior to non members. As it stands now, there isn't much of an incentive to join AGC if the shooter's focus is only on the action shooting matches.
The above statement wasn't valid during shutdowns and extreme ammo shortages when there was much less demand for a spot at the events.

 

[JohnnyE]

Sounds like your home club has a range. Most AGC affiliated clubs do not. They have availability of the AGC range only.

AGC needs both action shooting and hole punching IMO. And the last thing that AGC needs is to have factions or tunnel vision develop, with regard to which shooting disciplines to support.

I did not know this. Thanks for enlightening me!

I agree. imo the problem is not action shooting vs static shooting, its transparency with funds. prices go up on everything, i think we all get that. but where is the money going. some of people including myself have questions. I have seen money spent on good projects and bad projects. I would like to see some numbers before we just raise fees and say its for the good of the range or inflation or whatever other reason. i have no problems with paying more. I don't want to see the money wasted.

Transparency is vital, The concept of "give us your money, trust us" only goes so far.

 

[DC-W]

When I was in Atlanta, I couldn't find an outdoor range within an hour that was less than like $400. And those weren't in the same ballpark as AGC.

The AGC is a rare gem being so close to a major metropolitan area and it is on the lower end of cost in the region, especially when compared to the indoor ranges around.

 

[Sundazes]

The AGC is a rare gem being so close to a major metropolitan area and it is on the lower end of cost in the region, especially when compared to the indoor ranges around.

I agree 100%. It would be nice to see where all the money is going.