5.56 Frangible as HD ammo?

[Pinecone]

http://www.bangsteel.com/philosophy....html

Frangible even penetrated multiple walls.

As did 00 Buck.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/

.22 rimfire will even penetrate multiple walls.

 

[lazarus]

I absolutely agree. Just trying to think worst case. Best case the bad guy is located away from your loved ones and your single shot barely exits the back of them and falls to the ground after tearing apart their coronary arteries and smashing through their spine.

I don't think I'd go to ballistic armor in walls, but it does make me kind of curious. I know the actual bullet proof composite boards are light and expensive. I'd be curious to see someone test home brew wall admiring. I'd think doing something like using 1/2" sheet rock with 1/4" hardibacker under it and filling the walls with high density foam might add some legitimate bullet resistance. I am sure pistol rounds would still penetrate, but it might break up and soak up high velocity light rifle rounds.

 

[smokey]

I absolutely agree. Just trying to think worst case. Best case the bad guy is located away from your loved ones and your single shot barely exits the back of them and falls to the ground after tearing apart their coronary arteries and smashing through their spine.

I don't think I'd go to ballistic armor in walls, but it does make me kind of curious. I know the actual bullet proof composite boards are light and expensive. I'd be curious to see someone test home brew wall admiring. I'd think doing something like using 1/2" sheet rock with 1/4" hardibacker under it and filling the walls with high density foam might add some legitimate bullet resistance. I am sure pistol rounds would still penetrate, but it might break up and soak up high velocity light rifle rounds.

A couple sheets of flooring tiles with some durable fabric backing on the back of a bookshelf/dresser would b a good start

 

[Ngrovcam]

Will google around a bit on the Vmax
round...anyone have a thought about
using .223 vs 5.56 Vmax for HD?
Would the .223 at short range yield
the desired effect without the greater
penetrating power of the 5.56?

 

[DaemonAssassin]

Will google around a bit on the Vmax
round...anyone have a thought about
using .223 vs 5.56 Vmax for HD?
Would the .223 at short range yield
the desired effect without the greater
penetrating power of the 5.56?

With how devastating the VMax is on game, I really don't think you will have too much of an issue with it for HD. It is a hollowpoint with a polymer tip, that allows reliable feeding in semi-autos and gives a better BC than just a hollowpoint.

 

[clandestine]

Any 5.56 round besides frangible is better than 12G, 9mm, .40, or .45 for Home Defense. Unless one is dense in the head, the 5.56 is not more dangerous in regards to over-penetration of doors, inner walls, or outer walls.

Then there are the tards who think the 5.56 does not wound people badly. Just take a look at pics of AR and .223/5.56 wounds and draw a conclusion.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

Any 5.56 round besides frangible is better than 12G, 9mm, .40, or .45 for Home Defense. Unless one is dense in the head, the 5.56 is not more dangerous in regards to over-penetration of doors, inner walls, or outer walls.

Then there are the tards who think the 5.56 does not wound people badly. Just take a look at pics of AR and .223/5.56 wounds and draw a conclusion.

I need to find the book I picked up a long time ago, that had ballistic testing done. I think it was The Book of The AR-15 Vol.1, by Patrick Sweeny. He went into the ballistics of the 223/556 and how the FMJ will fragment and tumble in gel, he also went into the ballistics of a 223/556 hitting drywall.

Let me see if I can find it at the house, because it backs up everything you are saying.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Time for Parameter refinement :

Are we discussing interior penetration in the context of comparison to reasonably common handgun, shotgun, and rifle options ?

Or do you have actual or percieved requirements for absolutely minimum penetration as over riding factor ?

 

[Qbeam]

What is the difference between frangible, softpoint, and the Vmax? Is it the lead hardness, or construction?

Q

 

[DaemonAssassin]

What is the difference between frangible, softpoint, and the Vmax? Is it the lead hardness, or construction?

Q

Frangible - turns into dust or small pieces when it hits something. Does not penetrate anything. Good for use at a range.

Soft point - exposed lead tip, offers expansion, but the tip is easily deformed in semi-autos. Good for hunting if you are using a bolt action.

Vmax - has a polymer tip over the hollow point. The polymer tip ensures reliable feeding in a semi-auto and does not deform easily. The polymer tip also allows for the projectile to have a higher ballistic coefficient. I dropped a coyote at 400 yards with a 55gr Hornady VMax. It was absolutely devastating at that range.

If I was forced to pick one of the 3 for HD, I'd go with the VMax in the AR. Best of the FMJBT and HP capabilities rolled into one package.

If I wasn't forced to pick one of the 3 for HD, I'd go with a 55gr FMJBT for HD.

 

[Ngrovcam]

Wow! FMJBT over the Vmax. After that
endorsement of the Vmax at 400yds, does
that mean the Vmax at close range, say
less than 10 yards, is not as effective as at
long range? So, for example, that at what is effectively muzzle velocity, it is moving too fast to deform in time to do damage, as done folks note as a weakness of the
855 round?

I believe there are YouTube videos out there demonstrating those options in ballistic gel, etc... Guess I will have to watch a few...and, then maybe buy of coupla boxes of each and give 'em a try.

 

[Biggfoot44]

And the additional catagories are bonded soft points and X bullets. ( the net results of their terminal performance is similar.) Remain intact thru hard barriers, and expand into mushrooms or equivalents. In this case " barrier blind tactical " overlaps with deer hunting.

Most conventional soft points ( unless specifically designed for deer hunting) massively expand and have penetration suitable for large varmits. For some situations wanting low penetration in flesh, this can be good, all depends what you want. With really short pistol or SBR bbls some of them will behave more like deer bullets.

Frangible bullets will turn to powder on hard surfaces. For unobstructed flesh or very light cover, can be highly variable.

 

[Qbeam]

So frangibles look like powdered metal fmj, or some form of it? They would not have a lead exposed tip, but be homogenous throughout.


Q

 

[Ngrovcam]

Biggfoot44, yes, I was basing my
questions on penetration relative to
the other standard options, e.g., 00 buck,
smaller shot, pistol rounds, especially
HP stuff. I think any of the options
deliver adequate stopping power, so
the post-hit issue was my concern.
Seems like the Vmax/HP/SP comparisons
above are really instructive to me, who
has much to learn.
What I was not questioning was the
tactical issue of shotgun vs handgun
vs AR carbine.
Thank you for asking...and thank you
all for sharing your insights.

 

[Pinecone]

So frangibles look like powdered metal fmj, or some form of it? They would not have a lead exposed tip, but be homogenous throughout.


Q

Yes. And typically they are non-lead containing.

And no jacket, so the ones I have shot are a dark grey bullet.

 

[Pinecone]

Biggfoot44, yes, I was basing my
questions on penetration relative to
the other standard options, e.g., 00 buck,
smaller shot, pistol rounds, especially
HP stuff. I think any of the options
deliver adequate stopping power, so
the post-hit issue was my concern.
Seems like the Vmax/HP/SP comparisons
above are really instructive to me, who
has much to learn.
What I was not questioning was the
tactical issue of shotgun vs handgun
vs AR carbine.
Thank you for asking...and thank you
all for sharing your insights.

If you look at Box O' Truth, everything except bird shot will penetrate multiple walls.

 

[Biggfoot44]

If the discussion is wall penetration* if the shot misses and hits wall instead * , then either M193 or lightly constructed 55gr expanding will penetrate less than conventional handgun ammo or buckshot.


If the discussion is reducing risk of overpenetrating a torso hit upon a felon, certain jhp's will be less than M193, but M193 still isn't bad. ( I fear a new discussion of relative stopping power will begin, but the question on the table was over penetration.)

In theory, with either type, more velocity is better, as it would induce more penetration.

Back in the day, Federal Blitz 40gr HP had some popularity with Correction Depts, to be able to shoot fractious inmates in crowded yards with minimal risk of pass thru to hit other inmates or gaurds in the vicinity. But that was in the day of 1:12 twists, and frequently Mini 14's .

 

[lazarus]

I think what you mean is more velocity reduces penetration. In effect it causes more expansion or more rapid framentation.

 

[Ngrovcam]

Do we ever gather in person? So much
great stuff discussed and shared here,
I cannot imagine this group's members
wouldn't enjoy being together to share
a meal and a moderate amount of
adult beverages consumed responsibly!

 

[Biggfoot44]

Oh crud ! I meant to type more velocity induces more fragmentation, which in turn reduces penetration among other things.

*********

Yes, MDS'ers do get together in real life more than the stereotypical internet groups.

Occasional large social get togethers. Occasional mini get togethers. I know I've hosted a couple mini's sort pf in your part of the world.

Various shooting events. Sometimes formal MDS organized, Dottrio ( IP) puts on a heck of an event annually.. I haven't yet made it to a Hooligans range trip, but have met several in another context, and bunch of good people, and the shooting events are worth the road trip.

In Annapolis, for 2A Tue, Committee hearings, and just generally turning out in numbers sharing our thoughts with the elected representatives.

And 2A related activities generally. Meetings of gun rights groups, public meeting of "groups discussing gun issues", spontaneous gatherings of private individuals opposing anti-gun politicians. Public Hearings of HPRB.


And probably more I'm not thinking of.
Most Gun Clubs will coincidently have plenty of MDS'ers.