5.56 Frangible as HD ammo?

[Ngrovcam]

Recently shot up a bunch of Winchester
5.56 frangible stuff...45 gr...relatively
inexpensive, easy on the range
infrastructure. It shot consistently
low and was very dirty.

The question is whether it would be
suitable HD ammo? Close ranges
obviate the low shot concern. The
45 gr seems light. Plus, with 193 and especially 855, you have to worry
about over-penetration of both walls - and, of other more squishy stuff...but,
would frangible rounds solve the
over-penetration issue, while still
having adequate knock-down/stay-down power?

I have not seen this issue addressed
in other threads, but I suspect I am
not the first one to raise it...apologies
in advance if in fact this is repetitive.

 

[mopar92]

No on frangible, they lack adequate penetration. Use m193 if nothing else and varmint rounds when you get to the store next time. Or use 55-64 grain soft points like the Federal Fusion.

 

[smokey]

No on frangible, they lack adequate penetration. Use m193 if nothing else and varmint rounds when you get to the store next time. Or use 55-64 grain soft points like the Federal Fusion.

For price, the hornady 50 rnd pack of soft points is fairly decent.

 

[Mark75H]

5.56 can penetrate walls, but its a low energy dying nub when it comes out the other side of its first ½" drywall. After wall #1, just about anything is likely to stop it.

Like Mop said, don't worry about over penetration; anything less is too much less.

 

[Ngrovcam]

Thank you, fellas. The suggested use of
soft points brings to mind ammo like
the IMI 69gr HPBT stuff... I have never
used any of it, but wonder if you all
would still lean on the side of soft point stuff
instead of the HPs?

 

[5.56blaster]

Has been linked to respiratory issues. On a baffled range it caused problems due to lots of crap in the air. Lots of info on the web. In the M-4 it really sucked. I like lead!

 

[Kagetsu]

I'm curious about just which HP/SP rounds the Fed's suddenly stockpiled by the 100's of thousands, even for small departments like the National Weather service.

I like bonded. That tiny bullet needs to stay intact. Especially if it encounters bone. I'm going with 64 gr both in Winchester HP and Speer SPGD. I dismissed the PDX because it was made for half the round to break up. So I chose the powermax.

 

[mopar92]

Thank you, fellas. The suggested use of
soft points brings to mind ammo like
the IMI 69gr HPBT stuff... I have never
used any of it, but wonder if you all
would still lean on the side of soft point stuff
instead of the HPs?

The IMI stuff is mil spec match gradeish stuff. It's designed not to expand in accordance with the Hague. Between that and the SP I would go with the SP.

It's technically a hollowpoint due to how the jacket is made but doesn't work very well as one. Kind of how a Honda Ridgeline looks like a truck but it isn't the best to tow a 10,000 pound trailer.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Ok, what is the OP's primary criteria ?

Penetration or lack on hard barriers ?

Penetration or lack on interior drywall ?

Fragmentation ( or at least tumbling) in tissue ?

Expansion in tissue ?


And since *Home* defense was specified, I won't even mention windshield penetration.

 

[Pinecone]

Frangible is designed to smash into dust. It may do so before penetrating. NOT good for HD.

Military bullets may not expand, but they do tumble and/or fragment. Both help energy transfer and limit over penetration. In fact, one issue with M855 is a lot of time, it does neither and just punches a very small hole in the target.

 

[clandestine]

Soft Point may not feed in every AR. Just a heads up.

M4 Ramps that are cut PROPERLY will negate any issues.

 

[Ngrovcam]

OK, so to be more specific, I was
concerned about over penetration in
terms of endangering unintended
others. Thought the frangible round
would obviate that issue (I have
plaster walls in my 1936 single family)
and would still penetrate the target
and break up at short range better
than standard fare.

Sounds like the consensus may be that
855 is too tightly wound, IMI BTHP
also (never heard of the air quality
issue)...SP ammo is high on the
list, but as with most others,
should be run through on the range to
make sure if will reliably feed in my
rifle. And, that the standard 193 is
a good "go to".

I know some may offer the idea that a
shotgun or handgun is a better option
for HD. No argument, and I am
covered on both of those. But, as I
shoot it more and more, I am
starting to like the more tactical feel
of my Colt carbine...I just don't know
enough about it yet to know what I
don't know (I trained on the Garand
and M14 back in the distant past...).

Just really appreciative and thankful
to have you all out there to ask!!!

 

[lazarus]

5.56 can penetrate walls, but its a low energy dying nub when it comes out the other side of its first ½" drywall. After wall #1, just about anything is likely to stop it.

Like Mop said, don't worry about over penetration; anything less is too much less.

For regular xm193? I've never shot at drywall, but that isn't what any YouTube video I've ever seen shows. It'll stop faster than 9mm...but it'll still rip through 7-9 standard walls before it stops and I've seen plenty of videos of it ripping through a regular dry wall and then fragmenting 12-13" deep in ballistic gelatin with several layers of jeans over top of the gel.

 

[Pinecone]

Go to Box o' Truth website and see tests on penetration of sheet rock.

5.56 will surprise you. 9mm penetrates more.

 

[lazarus]

Go to Box o' Truth website and see tests on penetration of sheet rock.

5.56 will surprise you. 9mm penetrates more.

Absolutely...but 5.56 still easily has enough penetration to be lethal on the otherside of a house after tearing through a few walls if it doesn't hit something really thick first, like a fridge, heavy wood cabinet, multiple 2x4s.

 

[smokey]

Absolutely...but 5.56 still easily has enough penetration to be lethal on the otherside of a house after tearing through a few walls if it doesn't hit something really thick first, like a fridge, heavy wood cabinet, multiple 2x4s.

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

 

[lazarus]

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

FMJ is going to hold together a lot better and you are still relying on distance and multiple walls with some of those rounds. That Vmax even after 1 wall may still be lethal and would certainly be VERY injurious one room over, especially if the victim was close to the wall the round came out of. Same thing with the soft points, but a little worse with those. A 55gr FMJ is likely to still be lethal past the 3rd wall in the example and would certainly cause some bad injuries.

On the other hand, the Vmax and a general frangible round are also both going to limit over penetration compared to an FMJ or JHP from a pistol. Also they are going to suck trying to kill a bad guy through a barrier. Like if the bad guy jumped behind a couch. Can't have your cake and eat it too of course.

If I was using an AR as a HD gun I'd probably load it up with something like Vmax or some other light soft point ammo. But I'd also be cognizant of the fact that if the bad guy was standing right in front of my kids bedroom, that if I missed him, the round is likely to still seriously injure or kill my kid if it hits them in the room beyond.

A Vmax or similar is pretty likely to prevent the round from over penetrating the bad guy, going through the wall behind them and still proving lethal. A pistol round, especially if it doesn't expand properly absolutely still could do that.

 

[lazarus]

Also if note, the person doing the test mentioned using 5/8" sheet rock. Most homes are built with 1/2" sheet rock. 5/8" is generally only used where needed to meet fire code, like seperating a garage from the rest of a house.

Which means a worse case penetration is a fair amount more likely to be carrying lethal energy and/or not break up the round.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

Uh, I didn't see anybody mention a 55gr Hornady VMax...

 

[smokey]

Also if note, the person doing the test mentioned using 5/8" sheet rock. Most homes are built with 1/2" sheet rock. 5/8" is generally only used where needed to meet fire code, like seperating a garage from the rest of a house.

Which means a worse case penetration is a fair amount more likely to be carrying lethal energy and/or not break up the round.

Keep in mind the shots were also straight on. Slant armor worked on tanks for a reason. And angle and that half inch drywall would likely behave more similar to the 5/8. One thing to note on overpenetration, the more shots you have to take, the more chances those may miss and harm someone in the background. Of the rifle rounds, favoring something that breaks up early and isn't as effective may actually pose a bigger risk to those in the background if you need to press the trigger more to stop the threat. Food for thought at least.

You can also always drop level and fire at an upward angle, and/or fortify walls around loved ones with ballistic paneling or even strategically placed bookshelves/ dressers that could suck a lot of energy out of a projectile.