300 BLK pistol build... possible?

[outobie]

I was about to build a 300 blackout pistol (bought the lower, brace and supressor) to run a supressor on...with the new threat to ban braces I am now hesitant.

I guess my backup plan would be to SBR. from reading the above thread it looks like a 10' barrel with a stock should meet the 29" OAL requirement?


If not then my backup to my backup will be to leave it a pistol and just remove the brace and have a naked buffer tube? is there something better I could do?

comments on my approach are appreciated. thanks

 

[outrider58]

I was about to build a 300 blackout pistol (bought the lower, brace and supressor) to run a supressor on...with the new threat to ban braces I am now hesitant.

I guess my backup plan would be to SBR. from reading the above thread it looks like a 10' barrel with a stock should meet the 29" OAL requirement?


If not then my backup to my backup will be to leave it a pistol and just remove the brace and have a naked buffer tube? is there something better I could do?

comments on my approach are appreciated. thanks

It will take a 10.5" barrel to reach 29" using a standard length carbine buffer tube and stock. Not a big deal because most barrels in that class are 10.5" long.
As for naked buffer tube, you should still be allowed put a wraparound pad(same material you find on fishing rod grips) on the tube as long as you don't put a pad over the end of the tube(for shouldering).

 

[outobie]

the upper that's top of my list is the Brownell AR 180S which is a gas piston 10" barrel...guess I'll have to pin and weld the muzzel device on
then?

if I start out as a Pistol, then SBR my lower, can I later convert the SBR back into a pistol? Or is it once an SBR, always an SBR? how does the magic flow in that scenario?

reason I ask is that the AR180 I want doesn't need a buffer tube, so one option is to remove the tube all together...I had other thoughts of a folding or removable brace but it's getting too difficult to understand the law and I don't want to subject myself to any legal issues.

I wish there was a color coded matrix that lists all the different configurations with a green (GTG) or red (no bueno) square next to what is and isn't legal

 

[dblas]

the upper that's top of my list is the Brownell AR 180S which is a gas piston 10" barrel...guess I'll have to pin and weld the muzzel device on
then?

AR180S is discontinued according to their website.

if I start out as a Pistol, then SBR my lower, can I later convert the SBR back into a pistol? Or is it once an SBR, always an SBR? how does the magic flow in that scenario?

Per ATF a pistol can be built into a rifle and back again. I'm not sure if that changes once it is built into an SBR.

reason I ask is that the AR180 I want doesn't need a buffer tube, so one option is to remove the tube all together...I had other thoughts of a folding or removable brace but it's getting too difficult to understand the law and I don't want to subject myself to any legal issues.

Folding stock is one of the evil features, Grenade/flare launcher is another, flash suppressor is the third item. You can have one of any of them. If yo have two, it is now a copy of an "assault weapon", and then banned.

I wish there was a color coded matrix that lists all the different configurations with a green (GTG) or red (no bueno) square next to what is and isn't legal

 

[outobie]

AR180S is discontinued according to their website.

sorry meant the BRN 180s this one... https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...plete-upper-receiver-assembly-prod127762.aspx




Per ATF a pistol can be built into a rifle and back again. I'm not sure if that changes once it is built into an SBR.



Folding stock is one of the evil features, Grenade/flare launcher is another, flash suppressor is the third item. You can have one of any of them. If yo have two, it is now a copy of an "assault weapon", and then banned.

OK I wasn't sure if the two evil feature list applied to pistols or only rifles. there's a guy I spoke to once at my shooting club who has an SBR'd lower with a folding stock and a 7" barrell and a supressor...he insisted it's perfectly legal when I asked...seems wrong to me on a couple levels but I'm no expert.

 

[outobie]

is anyone aware of /could recommend, a lawyer I could pay a small fee to, to answer my questions definitively on what I can and can't do to be compliant with all laws/regs for my build?

 

[alucard0822]

AR180S is discontinued according to their website.




Per ATF a pistol can be built into a rifle and back again. I'm not sure if that changes once it is built into an SBR.



Folding stock is one of the evil features, Grenade/flare launcher is another, flash suppressor is the third item. You can have one of any of them. If yo have two, it is now a copy of an "assault weapon", and then banned.

Pistols can be "converted" to a rifle and back to a pistol, as long as the stock and short barrel are never installed at the same time ( SBR definition), you are legal. In much the same way an SBR can be converted to a rifle and back to an SBR, but it CAN NEVER be a "pistol" ala with a brace, only an SBR or just an " R".

I was about to build a 300 blackout pistol (bought the lower, brace and supressor) to run a supressor on...with the new threat to ban braces I am now hesitant.

I guess my backup plan would be to SBR. from reading the above thread it looks like a 10' barrel with a stock should meet the 29" OAL requirement?


If not then my backup to my backup will be to leave it a pistol and just remove the brace and have a naked buffer tube? is there something better I could do?

comments on my approach are appreciated. thanks

I would probably build it as a pistol, and unless you are really dead set on a really short barrel I would build it to 29+" just incase it needs to become a MD legal SBR down the road. The SBR is measured to the muzzle or pinned muzzle device, AND with the stock fully extended. So an A5 buffer setup or LAW folder can make up 3/4" if you need it with a 10" barrel, or just pin your can adapter, and it counts towards the OAL. My 10.5 AR15 SBR with a standard tube, MOE SL stock and 14.1"LOP extended is 29.1", usually for DI rifle cal ARs the formula is 4.5"+max length of pull+barrel length=OAL

 

[outrider58]

Pistols can be "converted" to a rifle and back to a pistol, as long as the stock and short barrel are never installed at the same time ( SBR definition), you are legal. In much the same way an SBR can be converted to a rifle and back to an SBR, but it CAN NEVER be a "pistol" ala with a brace, only an SBR or just an " R".

Not even if the SBR started out as a pistol? I've not heard of that being the case.

 

[Shore88]

24" sounds about right. I prefer the 208g, but I've loaded and shot plenty of 220-225grs too.

Will a 1:8 twist on 16” barrel hold those 200+ grain sub sonics steady? With or without a suppressor?

 

[Shore88]

AR180S is discontinued according to their website.




Per ATF a pistol can be built into a rifle and back again. I'm not sure if that changes once it is built into an SBR.



Folding stock is one of the evil features, Grenade/flare launcher is another, flash suppressor is the third item. You can have one of any of them. If yo have two, it is now a copy of an "assault weapon", and then banned.

Seriously not trying to be a wise guy here, or hint that I’d try to skirt the law, I’m just trying to understand what I’ve read on this forum. If I buy a stripped lower sold as “other”, and I have parts at my house for a pistol and rifle, how in the world does anyone know what it started as? Am I missing something? Once you build it the first time do you have to register it with ATF or MSP stating whether it’s a pistol or rifle? I admit I’m new to this AR home build stuff but I didn’t think you had to tell anyone what your first build was. Is this simply an honor system?

 

[dblas]

OK I wasn't sure if the two evil feature list applied to pistols or only rifles. there's a guy I spoke to once at my shooting club who has an SBR'd lower with a folding stock and a 7" barrell and a supressor...he insisted it's perfectly legal when I asked...seems wrong to me on a couple levels but I'm no expert.

Only applies to rifles, not pistols.

Your friend's SBR is fine if it is pre Oct 2013 (shorter than 29" OAL), or the suppressor is permanently attached (Barrel shorter than 16" but OAL of 29" or greater)

Why does it seem wrong to you?

 

[dblas]

Seriously not trying to be a wise guy here, or hint that I’d try to skirt the law, I’m just trying to understand what I’ve read on this forum. If I buy a stripped lower sold as “other”, and I have parts at my house for a pistol and rifle, how in the world does anyone know what it started as? [/quot]

The ATF guidance on a pistol to rifle back to pistol, came about long before 80% lowers became a real thing. It was more for actual handguns/pistols that were bought and the converted to a rifle.

Am I missing something? Once you build it the first time do you have to register it with ATF or MSP stating whether it’s a pistol or rifle?

Nope, no registration required, they have no clue.

I admit I’m new to this AR home build stuff but I didn’t think you had to tell anyone what your first build was. Is this simply an honor system?

For 80% built firearms, it is absolutely the honor system.

 

[Shore88]

Seriously not trying to be a wise guy here, or hint that I’d try to skirt the law, I’m just trying to understand what I’ve read on this forum. If I buy a stripped lower sold as “other”, and I have parts at my house for a pistol and rifle, how in the world does anyone know what it started as? [/quot]

The ATF guidance on a pistol to rifle back to pistol, came about long before 80% lowers became a real thing. It was more for actual handguns/pistols that were bought and the converted to a rifle.



Nope, no registration required, they have no clue.



For 80% built firearms, it is absolutely the honor system.

Thanks. That’s what I thought.

 

[outrider58]

The ATF guidance on a pistol to rifle back to pistol, came about long before 80% lowers became a real thing. It was more for actual handguns/pistols that were bought and the converted to a rifle.

My thinking is that the law is in accordance with not being legal to convert a rifle into a pistol. It can only be legally converted into an SBR. It can then be reconfigured back into a rifle, but not a pistol.

 

[dblas]

My thinking is that the law is in accordance with not being legal to convert a rifle into a pistol. It can only be legally converted into an SBR. It can then be reconfigured back into a rifle, but not a pistol.

That's what I thought as well with regards to an SBR.

 

[alucard0822]

Great info. Thanks. Right now I don’t trust myself enough to build the upper. I like the .300 because I can use a suppressor down the road if I decide to go that route. I guess that would cycle okay in a 16” barrel with subsonic? Any thoughts on that? I was going to get a pistol length gas block. I really don’t want a pistol AR. Not right now anyway. Who knows how far I’ll take this newfound hobby of mine. I’m very familiar with guns and shooting, just not AR’s. One problem I see near term is ammo, both cost and availability. But I have a feeling that will come around.

300 is a great caliber, even supers suppress well being the powder volume is fairly low, and it uses magnum pistol powder, so it burns in less barrel. Pistol length gas systems are basically universal for all but the goofy 6-ish inch barrels, and early 16s, more dwell, lower pressure, tuned by port size, most cycle anything with standard buffer setups. My 9" doesn't have an adjustable gas block, runs perfectly, and runs from light 180gr subs unsuppressed up to hot 110s suppressed, all without a problem. For ammo, it's a fast growing caliber, and before the insanity new loads were coming out from manufacturers frequently. I handload for mine, partially because factory ammo is stupid expensive, often the same cost or more than 308, but can be handloaded as cheap as 5.56.

Not even if the SBR started out as a pistol? I've not heard of that being the case.

A pistol requires a firearm "originally designed, made, or intended to be fired with one hand" so an SBR > pistol would be a firearm made from a rifle, and not a pistol. Not sure of prosecutions, but there was one person I recall that form 1ed a GLOCK for use with a stock chassis kit, and asked if it could return to non-nfa status as a handgun, ATF told him no, rifles are rifles, SBR or non NFA, pistols can be converted to a rifle, but when you apply via form 1 to make a rifle(SBR) made to be fired with more than 1 hand, it can never be a pistol again.

Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or
a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from
a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon
made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a
“pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a
projectile by one hand.

 

[Shore88]

300 is a great caliber, even supers suppress well being the powder volume is fairly low, and it uses magnum pistol powder, so it burns in less barrel. Pistol length gas systems are basically universal for all but the goofy 6-ish inch barrels, and early 16s, more dwell, lower pressure, tuned by port size, most cycle anything with standard buffer setups. My 9" doesn't have an adjustable gas block, runs perfectly, and runs from light 180gr subs unsuppressed up to hot 110s suppressed, all without a problem. For ammo, it's a fast growing caliber, and before the insanity new loads were coming out from manufacturers frequently. I handload for mine, partially because factory ammo is stupid expensive, often the same cost or more than 308, but can be handloaded as cheap as 5.56.



A pistol requires a firearm "originally designed, made, or intended to be fired with one hand" so an SBR > pistol would be a firearm made from a rifle, and not a pistol. Not sure of prosecutions, but there was one person I recall that form 1ed a GLOCK for use with a stock chassis kit, and asked if it could return to non-nfa status as a handgun, ATF told him no, rifles are rifles, SBR or non NFA, pistols can be converted to a rifle, but when you apply via form 1 to make a rifle(SBR) made to be fired with more than 1 hand, it can never be a pistol again.

The 300 seems perfect for what I want, and everything you stated just reinforces that. Thanks for the info. I went and ordered the stripped lower and build kit, now I just have to find a 300 upper to my liking.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

The 300 seems perfect for what I want, and everything you stated just reinforces that. Thanks for the info. I went and ordered the stripped lower and build kit, now I just have to find a 300 upper to my liking.

Why not build the upper from parts you source , so it is exactly what you want?

 

[outrider58]

A pistol requires a firearm "originally designed, made, or intended to be fired with one hand" so an SBR > pistol would be a firearm made from a rifle, and not a pistol. Not sure of prosecutions, but there was one person I recall that form 1ed a GLOCK for use with a stock chassis kit, and asked if it could return to non-nfa status as a handgun, ATF told him no, rifles are rifles, SBR or non NFA, pistols can be converted to a rifle, but when you apply via form 1 to make a rifle(SBR) made to be fired with more than 1 hand, it can never be a pistol again.

Hmmm, interesting. This being a fuse I'm not willing to light, this is a case where NFA is way behind the times; A) pistols are almost never fire with one hand except in certain circumstances and B) I guess they(ATF) don't realize how many SBRs actually originate from "pistol" builds...

 

[alucard0822]

Hmmm, interesting. This being a fuse I'm not willing to light, this is a case where NFA is way behind the times; A) pistols are almost never fire with one hand except in certain circumstances and B) I guess they(ATF) don't realize how many SBRs actually originate from "pistol" builds...

There are a LOT of definitions that are antiquated. For most, congress passed a law decades ago, abdicated their responsibility to update or repeal that law by leaving it open to wide interpretation. Then you end up with the ATF making up rules to raid businesses and arrest people over, and it ends up in the courts to clarify the definition.

AR15 lowers(and potentially other split receiver firearms) don't meet the definition of a "firearm", and they have dropped charges aggainst people for posessing or manufacturing them unlawfully. Most regs around "80% receivers" isn't based in law, it's ATF's made up criteria. For the most part by law something is a firearm / receiver or it isn't, basically 100% or 0%.

Under the US Code of Federal Regulations, a firearm frame or receiver is defined as: “That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.”