“Long Gun Qual License Dead”

[danb]

I am not sure MD statute can compel FFLs to really do anything. They can compel that the check be done, possibly (not clear on that). But even so, FFLs will offer the service, or not, for a fee, depending on supply and demand. $20-$60 would be my guess. Plus possibly a storage fee if you dont do your paperwork on time and pick it up.


In my mind this would be unenforceable. No drug dealer is going to an FFL to get a check on the junkie trading guns for drugs. The only way that they know the check was not done is after the fact, when the crime is committed. Maybe.

 

[swinokur]

Remember that MSP also licenses FFL’s. I’m not sure that MSP would view a refusal to do a NICS check in a favorable light when the MD license came up for renewal.

Remember who we’re dealing with.

 

[danb]

They dont "compel" FFLs to handle 77e's for gunbroker transactions. FFLs do it for a fee. I highly doubt MSP would ding an FFL for charging a fee. just my opinion.

 

[jc1240]

I posted this way above, so you probably missed it as people have been saying it is illegal to use NICS for private sales. Turns out, it is voluntary for the seller to go to a FFL and have a NICS check done on a potential buyer. It is just that most buyers probably do not want to pay for this service so it is not done.

Now, if Maryland were to pass a law stating that all private sales must have a NICS check done, then this problem would pretty much be resolved.

Here is the guide form the ATF:

https://www.atf.gov/file/110076/download

I truly believe that everybody that is not in prison and that is not mentally deranged, should be able to buy a gun. Maybe, just maybe, if NICS were to concentrate on mentally disturbed people, we could prevent most of the mass shootings out there. As far as convicted felons having guns, I am alright with that once they are released from prison. First off, we know damn well that they are going to get a firearm. Second off, we released them and they go back to the neighborhoods that they know, which I would not want to visit without a firearm on my possession. Guessing most of us would not want to visit these areas unarmed where a lot of convicted felons live. They entire NICS system seems like a waste of time when it comes to keeping guns out of convicted felons hands. Then, a convicted felon goes to prison once more just because they were trying to defend themselves. Lastly, way too many non-violent crimes that make a person a convicted felon.

I could be convinced of the bolded part so long as their release is after they serve the full sentence; not paroled. I hate hypocrisy probably more than anything else. If they can get their voting rights back, this is no different.

Let me do a NICS background check directly, for any reason. I want to check volunteers for my community theater group. I want to check the volunteers for my son's Boy Scout Troop. I want to check the parents of my daughter's middle-school sports team.

If someone is a "prohibited person," that fact is a matter of public record (having obtained that status through due-process.) Why am I restricted from accessing this information? Common Sense dictates that I (we) should have access to public records, yes?

I 100% agree.

 

[fabsroman]

Ok thanks Fabs. My next question is since MD licenses FFL’s, can the MD statute, if passed, compel an FFL to run a NICS check when two private people come in and request it. If he refuses can MSP pop his MD license ?

That doesn’t sound voluntary to me. This is why I asked if BATFE would get involved since it sounds like the FFL is being compelled by state law to do something the Federal statute says is “voluntary”

I am just a curious non lawyer

The Maryland statute does not have to compel the FFL to do the NICS check. It would just compel the seller to find an FFL that will voluntarily, for a fee, do the NICS check. My FFL is NOT compelled to take in a GunBroker purchase and do the NICS check on it, but he does because he really, really, really likes me and I really, really, really like him (SCSG - lol). He could tell me to find a different FFL for my gunbroker purchases. He could tell Maryland residents to find a different FFL for their private sales too.

I am pretty sure that there will be plenty of FFLs out there willing to do this on a voluntary basis for a fee from the seller or buyer.

Maryland law is already in place that requires the seller of a firearm to have the process done at an FFL, or in the alternative a MSP barracks.

 

[TexDefender]

Ok thanks Fabs. My next question is since MD licenses FFL’s, can the MD statute, if passed, compel an FFL to run a NICS check when two private people come in and request it. If he refuses can MSP pop his MD license ?

That doesn’t sound voluntary to me. This is why I asked if BATFE would get involved since it sounds like the FFL is being compelled by state law to do something the Federal statute says is “voluntary”

I am just a curious non lawyer

I hate to say it, but I don't think can make a local or state law that violates a federal law. But, unfortunately I do think you can make a state or local that is stricter than a federal law. Provided it doesn't violate someone's civil rights.

 

[swinokur]

They dont "compel" FFLs to handle 77e's for gunbroker transactions. FFLs do it for a fee. I highly doubt MSP would ding an FFL for charging a fee. just my opinion.

No but a Gunbroker sale is a legitimate transfer and still requires the FFL to agree to accept it.

Compelling a transfer based on the statute is a different situation but IANAL.

ETA never mind Fabs answered it

 

[fabsroman]

Remember that MSP also licenses FFL’s. I’m not sure that MSP would view a refusal to do a NICS check in a favorable light when the MD license came up for renewal.

Remember who we’re dealing with.

How would the MSP even know that a FFL refused to do a NICS check. Plus, I am pretty sure that there are FFLs out there that already refuse to do transfers for one reason or another. For instance, if it comes up that the purchase is going to be a straw purchase, the FFL can refuse to do the transfer even if the imbecile buyer checks off on the 4473 that the purchase is for themselves.

I doubt MSP would have any issue whatsoever with an FFL refusing to do a NICS check, and thereby refusing to put a gun in a civilian's hands. Remember who we are dealing with here, they don't want those guns out there in the first place (somewhat tongue in cheek).

 

[danb]

I hate to say it, but I don't think can make a local or state law that violates a federal law. But, unfortunately I do think you can make a state or local that is stricter than a federal law. Provided it doesn't violate someone's civil rights.

Sort of. "violate someone's civil rights" is the operative part. scope of state law can be no more strict than the scope federal RKBA. unfortunately, though the Supreme Court has not yet told us what the scope is. MD is probably way over the line, but we wont find out for a while.

 

[fabsroman]

No but a Gunbroker sale is a legitimate transfer and still requires the FFL to agree to accept it.

Compelling a transfer based on the statute is a different situation but IANAL.

Everything is a "legitimate" transfer, even in a private sale. It is just that there is no legal requirement for a NICS check at the federal level for a Maryland resident to Maryland resident sale of a long gun.

Now, what happens with regulated firearms when a Maryland resident wants to sell a Maryland resident a handgun and they decide to go through an FFL, because by Maryland law they MUST go through an FFL or the MSP barracks. Does the FFL do a NICS check on the buyer when the FFL handles the transaction?

 

[swinokur]

Don’t FFL’s do that now for FTF sales? But as you point out it’s still voluntary

I would guess for MSP it’s not voluntary but I have heard of them asking people to come back if they are short handed

 

[danb]

IDK, Federal law "compels" me to find an FFL to transfer the out-of-state rifle I bought on Gunbroker. If I want it, I need to find an FFL who will voluntarily take it, for a fee. I could show up in VA, but then Federal law still compels the 4473. If I can't find an FFL, I dont buy the rifle.

same situation with the involuntary voluntary NICS check for private LG sales: FFLs will voluntarily do the NICS check, probably for the same price they transfer gunbroker long guns.

 

[TexDefender]

IDK, Federal law "compels" me to find an FFL to transfer the out-of-state rifle I bought on Gunbroker. If I want it, I need to find an FFL who will voluntarily take it, for a fee. I could show up in VA, but then Federal law still compels the 4473. If I can't find an FFL, I dont buy the rifle.

same situation with the involuntary voluntary NICS check for private LG sales: FFLs will voluntarily do the NICS check, probably for the same price they transfer gunbroker long guns.

That is no doubt true. But must we once again bear a cost for something that rarely occurs? If I want to give a firearm to my 27 year old son, will I have to go and pay to have a FFL transfer? If I die and I will my firearms to my children with I have to have them get a background check for each of them?

 

[Racer Doug14]

Let me do a NICS background check directly, for any reason. I want to check volunteers for my community theater group. I want to check the volunteers for my son's Boy Scout Troop. I want to check the parents of my daughter's middle-school sports team.

If someone is a "prohibited person," that fact is a matter of public record (having obtained that status through due-process.) Why am I restricted from accessing this information? Common Sense dictates that I (we) should have access to public records, yes?

If you are around kids in any volunteer organization, you will HAVE to have a BG check. Little league, BSA, 4H you name it. If they dont, they are stupid and liable as heck.

 

[swinokur]

Federal law allows firearms to be willed to family members without a transfer through an FFL.

MD law does require a 77r be submitted so I guess the NICS check happens at that point

 

[TexDefender]

Federal law allows firearms to be willed to family members without a transfer through an FFL.

True, but I have no doubt that will be next.

 

[Racer Doug14]

I think I would be completely fine with that.

How is it that a private investigator can do a background check on people? Maybe all this information is actually available to us. Maybe you could have an applicant sign something allowing for the release of confidential records from DHMH and you can request any mental health records that way. I think we all know we can look most people up via Maryland case search, but that does not cover crimes committed in the other 49 states.

You should think about sending something to Pelosi and others requesting that this be something that people can go ahead and use to ensure their neighbors aren't convicted violent criminals or mentally disturbed.

The first thing a BG check Company asks for is your SSN. Why? Because they are lazy. I'm not giving anyone my SSN. Criminal BG is not based in SSNs and doesn't give any meaningful BG.

 

[BeoBill]

It’s defacto registration no matter what MSP or the MGA wants to call it.

That is exactly right. The Dims are out to DESTROY the 2A and us with it.

NO MORE COMPROMISES!! SPIKE ALL THE G*D BILL PROPOSALS!

WE WILL NOT COMPLY!


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[PowPow]

Do not give in to their death by one thousand cuts strategy. One more cut is unacceptable! I'm done with tyrants stepping on my unalienable rights.

 

[danb]

That is no doubt true. But must we once again bear a cost for something that rarely occurs? If I want to give a firearm to my 27 year old son, will I have to go and pay to have a FFL transfer? If I die and I will my firearms to my children with I have to have them get a background check for each of them?

To be clear i am opposed, but yeah its a pointless tax on your firearms.