Budget AR

bkuether · Feb 3, 2017

It depends what you want to do now.

Since you are asking about price we have to assume you are on a budget.

Windham - You get a very nice rifle, plus the carry handle sight, and a case. You have LOTS of money to buy magazines and ammo.

Colt - Probably a better overall rifle. You may have to get a rear sight. You will also have to buy a case to take it to the range. You have less money for ammo and magazines.

I see the Windham as the get out and start shooting NOW rifle. The Colt is your wait for more funds to buy things you need, and shoot it later.

Of course if money isn't the object, just buy the Colt. :rolleyes:

omegared24 · Feb 4, 2017

Mike444 said:
Any facts to back this up?

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Any facts to back up that it is a coin flip?

silver78 · Feb 4, 2017

I don't have any evidence to back up my opinion. But for me I have learned that the "budget" choice is no bargain in the long run. I have bought and sold several ARs over the years.

Personally I wouldn't buy either of the brands mentioned by the OP.

Colt = Large pin traitors
WW = just don't know enough about them

Here are the manufacturers of the ARs that I currently own and have been satisfied with:

National Manufacturers:

Armalite
Rock River
Stag

Smaller Shops:

White Oak
Engage

I I was looking for an AR today and price was a concern I would make two phone calls

1 Engage in Rockville
2 Pete in NH - RR & Stag Dealer (ar15sales.com)

I have bought from both of them. Give them your budget and let them make suggestions. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

bkuether · Feb 4, 2017

silver78 said:
I don't have any evidence to back up my opinion. But for me I have learned that the "budget" choice is no bargain in the long run. I have bought and sold several ARs over the years.

Personally I wouldn't buy either of the brands mentioned by the OP.

Colt = Large pin traitors
WW = just don't know enough about them

Here are the manufacturers of the ARs that I currently own and have been satisfied with:

National Manufacturers:

Armalite
Rock River
Stag

Smaller Shops:

White Oak
Engage

I I was looking for an AR today and price was a concern I would make two phone calls

1 Engage in Rockville
2 Pete in NH - RR & Stag Dealer (ar15sales.com)

I have bought from both of them. Give them your budget and let them make suggestions. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Second on the Stag, great overall rifle. I have a RR Arms upper, and the thing is well built and is a tack driver when "I" am on.....

inkd · Feb 4, 2017

silver78 said:
I don't have any evidence to back up my opinion. But for me I have learned that the "budget" choice is no bargain in the long run. I have bought and sold several ARs over the years.

Personally I wouldn't buy either of the brands mentioned by the OP.

Colt = Large pin traitors
WW = just don't know enough about them

When Freedom Group bought out Bushmaster, they moved all production from Windham, Maine to New York, all the workers stayed in Maine though.

The old owner still owned the property where Bushmaster formerly was and after his no-compete clause expired, he got back into the rifle business and hired all of the former workers back and named the new company Windham Weaponry.

They may be new in name but they have been building rifles for quite a long time.

Personally, I wouldn't own a Colt if someone gave it to me. I have an admitted personal bias towards them though, nothing against the quality of their AR's. Just their company policy.

3paul10 · Feb 4, 2017

Just get a Highpoint

bobbo · Feb 4, 2017

Build it

bobbo · Feb 4, 2017

.223 Wilde it fits .223 and 5.56 bullets
Anderson upper and lower mag pull furniture
Your looking at about 450 if you shop around

travistheone · Feb 4, 2017

Mike444 said:
Any facts to back this up?

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Supplying facts for the benefit of the OP.

MPI/HPT tested and certified 4150 bolt vs. batch test.

F sight base vs A2

guaranteed to be staked correctly vs varied history

Should be an H buffer vs carbine buffer

and the list goes on...

confirmation bias towards a brand you own doesn't help anything/anyone.

for the record I own neither.

Mike444 · Feb 4, 2017

travistheone said:
Supplying facts for the benefit of the OP.

MPI/HPT tested and certified 4150 bolt vs. batch test.

F sight base vs A2

guaranteed to be staked correctly vs varied history

Should be an H buffer vs carbine buffer

and the list goes on...

confirmation bias towards a brand you own doesn't help anything/anyone.

for the record I own neither.

Thank you.

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bobbo · Feb 4, 2017

I have read that individually HPT and MPI test bolts and carriers should be marked as such, yet there is no mention of this in any of the military standards.

First, I do not believe that there is any reason to HPT/MPI a carrier.

Second, Mil-C-70599A DOES call for marking of bolts and barrels that have passed the tests

4.7.4.4 Proof Markings. Proof marks and magnetic particle
inspection marks shall be applied on barrel assemblies and bolts that have passed this test.

bobbo · Feb 4, 2017

Just because something is stated as being 'mil-spec,' doesn't necessarily mean it adheres to the exact military specification for that item. And even though a manufacturer states it's product has been HPT and/or MPT, it doesn't necessarily mean that those proceedures were carried out in accordance with a military standard.

I understand what the military specifications are and why they are in place. I also feel the term 'mil-spec' is used quite loosely in the consumer market. 'Mil-spec' in that the bolt has been properly manufacturer, tested, but mysteriously not marked? Or 'mil-spec' in that it was made to a standard dimension and will work with 'any mil-spec' carrier?

Trepang · Feb 4, 2017

FWIW my Rock River had very weak staking on the gas key and none on the castle nut - Chad fixed that for me. While he was doing that, he pointed out that the M4 style feed ramps were put in with a dremel tool after the fact He used a Colt 6721 to show the way Colts feed ramps were milled in during the manufacturing process.

If you are looking for opinions, I'd go with a Colt. My first was a Rock River and the second two have been Colts. I have not had any issues with the RRA but then again I don't really shoot it that much.

Mike444 · Feb 4, 2017

Trepang said:
FWIW my Rock River had very weak staking on the gas key and none on the castle nut - Chad fixed that for me. While he was doing that, he pointed out that the M4 style feed ramps were put in with a dremel tool after the fact He used a Colt 6721 to show the way Colts feed ramps were milled in during the manufacturing process.

If you are looking for opinions, I'd go with a Colt. My first was a Rock River and the second two have been Colts. I have not had any issues with the RRA but then again I don't really shoot it that much.

Valuable feedback. Thank you

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bobbo · Feb 4, 2017

HPT is a mixed bag with dubious benefits. It's a destructive test that dramatically shortens the service life of a bolt. This is a non-issue for the military which specs a 3K round service life for the M4A1 bolts. In practical use, the machine gun rental range we contract to beat on prospective parts confirms that the functional life of non-HPT bolts far exceeds those of HPT bolts. HPT isn't even that good of an indicator that a bolt was made correctly. In Jan. 2013, a manufacturer released a batch of incorrectly treated bolts which were individually HPTed and MPIed. The bolts didn't start failing until consumers ran them. Every one of them would fail within the first magazine of use but HPT didn't catch this.

inkd · Feb 4, 2017

Trepang said:
FWIW my Rock River had very weak staking on the gas key and none on the castle nut - Chad fixed that for me. While he was doing that, he pointed out that the M4 style feed ramps were put in with a dremel tool after the fact He used a Colt 6721 to show the way Colts feed ramps were milled in during the manufacturing process.

If you are looking for opinions, I'd go with a Colt. My first was a Rock River and the second two have been Colts. I have not had any issues with the RRA but then again I don't really shoot it that much.

In Chad's armorer class that I took, 2 Noveske BCG's failed the staking test. One of them was mine.

I turned 2 people onto WW rifles and gave them a look over based on what I learned from Chad. Both of them passed the staking test.

Go figure.

chiefwannabe1 · Feb 4, 2017

I have the Windham AR and have had no issues with it....

travistheone · Feb 4, 2017

bobbo said:
HPT is a mixed bag with dubious benefits. It's a destructive test that dramatically shortens the service life of a bolt. This is a non-issue for the military which specs a 3K round service life for the M4A1 bolts. In practical use, the machine gun rental range we contract to beat on prospective parts confirms that the functional life of non-HPT bolts far exceeds those of HPT bolts. HPT isn't even that good of an indicator that a bolt was made correctly. In Jan. 2013, a manufacturer released a batch of incorrectly treated bolts which were individually HPTed and MPIed. The bolts didn't start failing until consumers ran them. Every one of them would fail within the first magazine of use but HPT didn't catch this.

what manufacturer do you work for?

last time I checked you were looking for part time work.

2/3s of your posts here have been to stir the pot in various threads. If you are such an expert on ARs and medical supplies create a thread sharing the knowledge, or a thread selling the knowledge.

bobbo · Feb 4, 2017

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=glk1qMbj7S0

bobbo · Feb 4, 2017

Iam retired out of the military. I consult and train for a government contractor. I'm not an ar16 expert maybe a m4,249,and 240 expert. That info came from the Cw4 next to me regarding ar15s

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