.22 Magnum for Concealed Carry?

[teratos]

Greg Ellifritz wrote an article about this recently:

Why Carry a .22?

I recently posted an article discussing the fact that I occasionally carry a Ruger LCP .22 pistol as a defensive carry gun. I got this email from a long time reader: Greg I know you

www.activeresponsetraining.net

Essentially, a .22 can be okay if you only need to get away from trouble. Nobody, criminals included, wants to get shot.

The article starts with an incorrect premise. A .22 does NOT have “remarkably similar “stopping power” to a service pistol in 9mm or greater caliber.”

Nope. Not at all.

Can you have confidence you can shoot a bad guy in the face?

 

[joppaj]

The article starts with an incorrect premise. A .22 does NOT have “remarkably similar “stopping power” to a service pistol in 9mm or greater caliber.”

Nope. Not at all.

Can you have confidence you can shoot a bad guy in the face?

That is a patently ridiculous statement. Frankly anyone still arguing about "stopping power" tells me they're not really serious.

Pistols suck for incapacitating people. The only way to do that quickly is taking out the CNS. Pistols suck at destroying the CNS. Broken bones, bleeding, they'll all do real damage but your attacker can still shoot back. Add in the fact that most people miss most of their shots under stress and this is borderline irresponsible.

 

[teratos]

That is a patently ridiculous statement. Frankly anyone still arguing about "stopping power" tells me they're not really serious.

Pistols suck for incapacitating people. The only way to do that quickly is taking out the CNS. Broken bones, bleeding, they'll all do real damage but your attacker can still shoot back. Add in the fact that most people miss most of their shots under stress and this is borderline irresponsible.

This is why so much R&D money is spent on projectile development in handguns. You don’t see it so much in rifles. Because handguns suck, and you need every advantage. .416 Rigby ammo hasn’t changed since it’s inception. Nobody needs Hornady ballistic tips on their .50 BMG. Lol.

 

[IronEye]

Greg collected the data and wrote the stopping power study. I added a link. I think a lot of people take issue with his data and conclusions. Each reader will have to read and the judge the study for themselves.


Stopping power article

 

[teratos]

Greg collected the data and wrote the stopping power study. I added a link. I think a lot of people take issue with his data and conclusions. Each reader will have to read and the judge the study for themselves.


Stopping power article

The key piece of data missing is “time to incapacity”. That is, IMO, the most important. Basically, that is the amount of time they have to shoot back.

 

[IronEye]

One item that refutes the report is that i know of no police agency or military has adopted 22LR as a carry caliber. If all handguns are similar in stopping power - why not?

 

[Ducky]

That is a patently ridiculous statement. Frankly anyone still arguing about "stopping power" tells me they're not really serious.

Pistols suck for incapacitating people. The only way to do that quickly is taking out the CNS. Pistols suck at destroying the CNS. Broken bones, bleeding, they'll all do real damage but your attacker can still shoot back. Add in the fact that most people miss most of their shots under stress and this is borderline irresponsible.

Which is why Placement, Practice and choice of gun/ammo is of paramount importance. If square on the target, placing one round just above where the collar bones meet, under the Adams Apple, should fracture the spinal cord resulting in immediate incapacitation.

People are trained to aim center-of-mass because muzzle jump and other adverse consequences of shooting hot ammo from lightweight frames often preclude requisite accuracy. The risk with .22 is same as it is with .223 versus .30xxx in forests/jungle, .i.e.. deflection of a low mass bullet as it might deflect off of collar bone.

A .32 wad cutter from a small revolver accomplishes this specific objective as well as .45 ACP.

 

[joppaj]

Greg collected the data and wrote the stopping power study. I added a link. I think a lot of people take issue with his data and conclusions. Each reader will have to read and the judge the study for themselves.


Stopping power article

I may have missed it but is there any data on distance for the shots? The numbers for .22 to the head look pretty impressive, but less so if those are contact shots.

Which is why Placement, Practice and choice of gun/ammo is of paramount importance. If square on the target, placing one round just above where the collar bones meet, under the Adams Apple, should fracture the spinal cord resulting in immediate incapacitation.

People are trained to aim center-of-mass because muzzle jump and other adverse consequences of shooting hot ammo from lightweight frames often preclude requisite accuracy. The risk with .22 is same as it is with .223 versus .30xxx in forests/jungle, .i.e.. deflection of a low mass bullet as it might deflect off of collar bone.

A .32 wad cutter from a small revolver accomplishes this specific objective as well as .45 ACP.

If you're capable of neck shots under stress you're a lot better than I am.

 

[jC3]

Firstly; I understand it's not a powerhouse of a round. Looking at roughly 100ft/lb energy with nice Hornady Critical Defense from a short 2" or so revolver, and that shot placement is crucial. I'm familiar with the caliber to know the shortcomings...but want to hear what others may think. Thoughts? Opinions? Am I crazy?

My primary backup carry is a Keltec PMR-30. It's the .22 mag's .22 mag!! Lightweight:17 ounces with 31 rounds (30 in the mag, 1 in the tube) ... Full size frame, 5-inch barrel, sweet trigger, illuminated sights...
And while even when shooting 45 grain JHP defense rounds the delivered energy is anemic, each properly placed round can do significant tissue damage -- and with 30 or 31 available, this accurate & smooth shooter is all the pistol one needs in most situations.
I carry this pistol & two mags around my little town...but for those unusual situations that crop up, my truck gun is a 10mm 1911 double stack...

 

[Biggfoot44]

.32 ACP (aka 7.62 Browning) was an Internationally .......... LEA and Military round for nearly a Century.

Well , it was widely issued and carried .

In those days in Europe . pistols were primarily a badge of office , and rarely used in gunfights . If they were planning a serious raid or apprehension , they broke out subguns and rifles the way that US LE used shotguns .

By the late '60s/ early '70s when they started encountering Terrorists and Communist Revolutionaries , and regularly having gunfights , they all quickly dropped the legacy 7.65 and 9x17 ( .380) in favor of 9 x 19 .

 

[Hibs]

One item that refutes the report is that i know of no police agency or military has adopted 22LR as a carry caliber. If all handguns are similar in stopping power - why not?

If the military cared about “stopping power” in handguns then why are they limited to round nose 9mm??

 

[Ducky]

Well , it was widely issued and carried .

In those days in Europe . pistols were primarily a badge of office , and rarely used in gunfights . If they were planning a serious raid or apprehension , they broke out subguns and rifles the way that US LE used shotguns .

By the late '60s/ early '70s when they started encountering Terrorists and Communist Revolutionaries , and regularly having gunfights , they all quickly dropped the legacy 7.65 and 9x17 ( .380) in favor of 9 x 19 .

Don't leave out the German military killing many people with 7.62 Browning even through WWII. Of course they too used 9mm Luger subguns or shotguns when 'true combat' was at hand. The fabulous progress in ammo design & manufacture leaves no doubt that 9 x 19 has become the go-to round for handgun fights but that same technology makes .32 ACP & .32 H&R Mag excellent for CCW 'defense' as versus combat. Plenty of Youtube video confirms compliance with FBI ballistics objectives.

Manufacturers' marketing rhetoric confuses everything by appealing to machismo. Unfortunately too few users bother to score themselves using ammo that's too hot for the lightweight frames they carry versus soft shooting rounds in easily concealed handguns. I and everyone I observe scores better in timed drills with .32 than they do with .380 - both speed and accuracy. Prompt 'placement' trumps caliber every time.

 

[Blacksmith101]

If the military cared about “stopping power” in handguns then why are they limited to round nose 9mm??

Bullet type i.e. no Dum Dum's is agreed to in international treaties. Look up why the US Army decided to change to the .45 ACP 1911 after the failures of the issued side arms in the Philippine Revolution it's all about stopping power. The subsequent change to 9mm is all about politics.

 

[Biggfoot44]

One item that refutes the report is that i know of no police agency or military has adopted 22LR as a carry caliber. If all handguns are similar in stopping power - why not?

There was One .Sort of .

The former Royal Northern Irish Constabulary .

N.I. is part of the Larger U.K. , but they have different firearms protocols , what with being a decades long active War Zone .

Most , if not all N.I. Constables were Armed .

In the rest of UK ,off duty LE is not armed . Much of N.I. Constables were , what with so many of them beind assassinated by the IRA & Splinter groups .

Their Issued Off Duty Guns were - Walther PP in .22lr .

 

[hogarth]

One item that refutes the report is that i know of no police agency or military has adopted 22LR as a carry caliber. If all handguns are similar in stopping power - why not?

There's more to it than "stopping power".

Reliability.
The ability to pierce intermediate barriers (auto glass, etc.)
Perhaps ammo commonality with other platforms for cost-effectiveness (subguns)?

For the average person walking their dog who isn't seeking trouble, a .22 of some sort is probably just fine.

I have a friend/mentor in the Intel community who carried a .22lr revolver operationally in former Yugo. His primary threat was being kidnapped, so a small, light gun he could carry next to his junk worked fine.

Also, I do believe that Sayaret Matkal carried .22lr Beretta 70/71s for hostage rescue/assassination work back in the 1970s. Successfully, I might add. One would think that such operations would put a premium on "stopping power", no?

 

[Biggfoot44]

Unfortunately too few users bother to score themselves using ammo that's too hot for the lightweight frames they carry versus soft shooting rounds in easily concealed handguns.

Actually , I did , and did take into consideration in my choices .

WWll Germany indeed killed Millions with 9x19 , mostly with subguns .

.32 were common with pilots . More commonly , .32 were used by Gestapo and Extermination Groups of the SS to execute prisoners . A ball peen hammer would work as well on handcuffed kneeling prisoners as would a .44 Magnum .

 

[alucard0822]

The article starts with an incorrect premise. A .22 does NOT have “remarkably similar “stopping power” to a service pistol in 9mm or greater caliber.”

Nope. Not at all.

Can you have confidence you can shoot a bad guy in the face?

To sum up dude's ridiculous article:
22 works because nobody wants to get shot.
22 works because a bad guy will give up and run away
22 works because it has similar "stopping power" to 9mm.
22 allows this dude to put every round into an attackers face at will. Larger calibers need to be aimed COM only.

It's buffoonery plain and simple. Sure 22 has killed people, no I'm not willing to get shot by it, sure people in the past used small calibers for defense. Thing is any competent and knowledgeable person knows better. Modern compact 9mm pistols with a locking breech are far more capable and controllable than older blowback designs. That being said carry what you want.

 

[teratos]

I have a friend with a colorful past. He was once shot twice in the abdomen with a .22. He didn’t want to go to the hospital for his own reasons. He watched tv for 4 hours until enough blood was in his abdomen to be painful. The shots hit vital blood vessels. He’d have died. He watched TV four hours.

 

[Ducky]

ALUCARD 0822 said:
It's buffoonery plain and simple. Sure 22 has killed people, no I'm not willing to get shot by it, sure people in the past used small calibers for defense. Thing is any competent and knowledgeable person knows better.

Seems to me efficacy depends on the user. See this:

Israeli Mossad .22 LRS: The Reliable Pistols of the Mossad

An enemy of Israel believes that he has successfully slipped away from the Mossad after his heinous act of terrorism.

www.tactical-life.com

 

[teratos]

ALUCARD 0822 said:
It's buffoonery plain and simple. Sure 22 has killed people, no I'm not willing to get shot by it, sure people in the past used small calibers for defense. Thing is any competent and knowledgeable person knows better.

Seems to me efficacy depends on the user. See this:

Israeli Mossad .22 LRS: The Reliable Pistols of the Mossad

An enemy of Israel believes that he has successfully slipped away from the Mossad after his heinous act of terrorism.

www.tactical-life.com

I really need a Beretta M 70 in my life.