Kolbe en banc decision

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  • pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,955
    Marylandstan
    http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/201...guns-even-if-the-2nd-amendment-never-existed/

    Proponents of federal gun control have seized upon the most recent shooting to advance their agenda, predictably trotting out the same worn narratives.
    Chief among these we find the argument that the Second Amendment was only intended to protect a “corporate” right of the “people” to keep and bear arms, and that it was meant to apply only to militia service.
    I’ve covered the relationship between the Second Amendment and the militia in my Constitution 101 series, explaining the militia was not an exclusive body of people, and it certainly wasn’t the National Guard, which was not established until 1903. As George Mason explained it, the people were essentially the militia.
    I ask,*Who are the militia?*They consist now of*the whole people, except a few public officers.”
    But for the sake of argument, let’s accept a narrow interpretation of the Second Amendment. Let’s assume it only relates to service in the militia.
    The federal government still has no authority to regulate firearms.
    As I explained in my Constitution 101 article on the Second Amendment, the Constitution only delegates specific powers to the federal government. The enumeration of certain powers logically excludes all powers not listed. Designato unius est exclusio alterius is a legal maxim meaning, “the designation of one is the exclusion of the other.” You will find no authority to regulate firearms or ban certain types of weapons in the Constitution. The supporters of the Constitution consistently argued that the federal government would not possess the authority to exercise any power not explicitly given.
    As a condition of ratification many states insisted on a Bill of Rights, including amendments to make this rule of construction explicit. The result was the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.
    So, even if the Second Amendment was never ratified, or if we accept the very narrow application preferred by progressives, the federal government still cannot infringe on the individual right to self-defense.
    The Ninth Amendment was ratified to ensure that listing certain rights in the Bill of Rights would not be construed as all-inclusive.
    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”
    Madison’s proposal for what became the Ninth Amendment makes clear the intent was to amplify the limits of federal power – specifically to ensure the enumeration of certain rights was not taken to imply the federal government could violate rights that were not mentioned.
    The exceptions here or elsewhere in the constitution, made in favor of particular rights, shall not be so construed as to diminish the importance of other rights retained by the people; or as to enlarge the powers delegated by the constitution; but rather as actual limitations of such powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution.”
    In other words, even if we accept the erroneous notion that the Second Amendment only protects a “collective” right to keep and bear arms, that doesn’t mean that the federal government can infringe on an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right would then fall under the category of “other rights retained by the people.”
    The individual right to self-defense was well-established when the Constitution was ratified. St. George Tucker wrote the first systematic commentary on the U.S. Constitution shortly after ratification. He called the right of self-defense the “palladium of liberty.”
    The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible.”
    In reality, the Second Amendment was intended to check this tendency of government to infringe on the right to self-defense.
    The American founding generation drew much of its legal theory from Blackstone. In his paper, The History of the Second Amendment, legal scholar David Vandercoy traced the right to keep and bear arms back to Blackstone and English common law.
    Blackstone described the right to keep arms as absolute or belonging to the individual, but ascribed both public and private purposes to the right. The public purpose was resistance to restrain the violence of oppression; the private was self-preservation.* Blackstone described this right as necessary to secure the actual enjoyment of other rights which would otherwise be in vain if protected only by the dead letter of the laws.”
    In Blackstone 1:139, he described a “natural right of resistance and self preservation.”
    The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute I W. & M. st. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.” [Emphasis added]
    Some will read Blackstone’s words and say, “See! ‘Such as are allowed by law,’ and ‘due restrictions.’ They never intended an unlimited right to have any kind of gun you want to.”
    That brings us to the Tenth Amendment. It works together with the Ninth Amendment to explicitly define the limits of federal power.
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
    Because the Constitution does not delegate gun control to the federal government, and because the Ninth Amendment makes it clear that the federal government cannot infringe on individual liberties – even those not listed in the Bill of Rights – any regulation or laws regarding guns remains the province of state governments, as dictated and limited by their constitutions.
    Simply put, no matter how you care to interpret the Second Amendment, based on a constitutional reading guided by Amendment IX and X, the federal government possesses zero authority to enforce any type of gun laws, or infringe on the right to self-defense in any way whatsoever.
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,955
    Marylandstan
    That rant was a waste of time to read.

    Sent from the 3rd Rock

    You have the right to your opinion, The FACTS speak loudly.

    Simply put, no matter how you care to interpret the Second Amendment, based on a constitutional reading guided by Amendment IX and X, the federal government possesses zero authority to enforce any type of gun laws, or infringe on the right to self-defense in any way whatsoever.
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,955
    Marylandstan
    The SCOTUS disagrees.



    Be specific please.
    I've been on MDshooters along time and have no wish to create contentions with other members.
    Many times on Heller and state issues the language is muddied.
    As the video said, Heller codified common law. Heller created a 'political thicket' to which we still pay for thru various states federal courts making up law thru change of language.
    Point is the same, federal and state government have no authority by strict language of US Consitution.. government and state shall not infringe.

    See below.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Be specific please.
    I've been on MDshooters along time and have no wish to create contentions with other members.
    Many times on Heller and state issues the language is muddied.
    As the video said, Heller codified common law. Heller created a 'political thicket' to which we still pay for thru various states federal courts making up law thru change of language.
    Point is the same, federal and state government have no authority by strict language of US Consitution.. government and state shall not infringe.

    See below.

    Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,955
    Marylandstan
    Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.

    Another example of misquoted and bastardized language out of context.
    What are dangerous and unusual weapons? Most likely as I understand NFA items.

    Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government.

    “By the way I call it "moral obedience" rather than "civil disobedience" because compiling with God's law can never be "disobedient". Those who try to promote un-natural laws on us are committing moral disobedience. It is our duty to resist immoral laws and actions.” By Richard Fry.
    *
     

    daggo66

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 31, 2013
    2,001
    Glen Burnie
    Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.

    Show me where it states any of that in the 2A. The words "Shall not infringe" are not followed by "except for".
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Another example of misquoted and bastardized language out of context.
    What are dangerous and unusual weapons? Most likely as I understand NFA items.

    *

    I am not sure why you think I misquoted Heller. It is exactly what Holding 2 of Heller says. Scalia also said the same thing in the video (starting about 12:14). Heller does not define what dangerous and unusual weapons are. Heller does indicate that concealed weapons have a historical prohibition.

    Your quote is not from Heller so I do not see how that demonstrates that I misquoted Heller.
     

    MrNiceGuy

    Active Member
    Dec 9, 2013
    270
    j is literally quoting Antonin Scalia from the Heller decision.

    Scalia added language to get the necessary votes after the liberals on the court started screaming about lunatics and convicted murderers rampaging through the streets with machine guns they bought at CVS. Fact is, none of the qualifications written into the decision have a basis in the US Constitution.

    If you're too dangerous to have a gun, you're too dangerous to not be behind bars or otherwise held in state custody. And everyone not in state custody has every bit as much God-given, United States Constitution-protected right to own a Browning M2 as they do to own a 9mm pistol. That right exists as an extension of the right of all free people to provide effective defense against all enemies foreign and domestic when lives are at stake. One cannot have a well-regulated militia where all anyone has is pistols. That is not well-regulated; it is damn near useless.

    We must never abdicate our responsibility to defend ourselves, our families, and even our fellow citizens (including the gun-hating liberals) from a tyrant here at home or a foreign aggressor. THAT is the essence of the Second Amendment and THAT is why the weasel words in Heller used to extract the necessary votes hold no water.
     

    Robert2888

    Active Member
    Nov 5, 2013
    897
    Westmoreland,VA
    Free men have a natural right to have any firearm available and that they can afford. I'm not talking about trident ballistic misslles but RPG's are included.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Show me where it states any of that in the 2A. The words "Shall not infringe" are not followed by "except for".

    ^This.

    His argument reminds me of a person who builds a fence for the sole purpose of adding a gate...

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

    The words "Shall not infringe" are not in the 2A, it is "shall not BE infringeD" The 2A simply states that the right shall not be infringed, but does not define the extent of the right. If it is not part of the right to begin with you are not infringing on the right.

    In Article III Section 1 of the Constitution, "The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court" It is currently accepted that they have the power to say what it means. Barring some change, like an amendment or the overthrow of the government, SCOTUS decides the extent of the right and they have stated that it is not an unlimited right. The specific language can be found by reading Heller.
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,977
    Fulton, MD
    The words "Shall not infringe" are not in the 2A, it is "shall not BE infringeD" The 2A simply states that the right shall not be infringed, but does not define the extent of the right. If it is not part of the right to begin with you are not infringing on the right.

    In Article III Section 1 of the Constitution, "The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court" It is currently accepted that they have the power to say what it means. Barring some change, like an amendment or the overthrow of the government, SCOTUS decides the extent of the right and they have stated that it is not an unlimited right. The specific language can be found by reading Heller.

    Herein lies your fallacy. The 2A doesn't define the right, but rather defines the government's limit to infringe on that right.
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Herein lies your fallacy. The 2A doesn't define the right, but rather defines the government's limit to infringe on that right.

    I don't understand what fallacy you think I am committing. All you have done is paraphrase what I have said. Do you not like the word extent?
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,977
    Fulton, MD
    I don't understand what fallacy you think I am committing. All you have done is paraphrase what I have said. Do you not like the word extent?

    From your wording, it would appear you are saying the 2A defines the right and thus the government can define how far (the extent that) the infringement can go.

    I'm saying the 2A does NOT define the right, but rather defines the limits on the government's infringement. Thus, "shall not be infringed" implies to me that any law or limit the government might impose on the 2A is unconstitutional.

    SCOTUS does not get to say the extent of infringement, because ANY infringement is unconstitutional.

    Perhaps you're saying the same thing?
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    From your wording, it would appear you are saying the 2A defines the right and thus the government can define how far (the extent that) the infringement can go.

    I'm saying the 2A does NOT define the right, but rather defines the limits on the government's infringement. Thus, "shall not be infringed" implies to me that any law or limit the government might impose on the 2A is unconstitutional.

    SCOTUS does not get to say the extent of infringement, because ANY infringement is unconstitutional.

    Perhaps you're saying the same thing?

    I said that the 2A "does not define the extent of the right" and so we are on the same page in that respect.

    Where we differ is how to determine the extent of the right. If something is not part of the right then you cannot infringe the right by banning that something.

    You are implying that it is an absolute right. What is your basis for claiming that it is an absolute right? If it is not absolute what are the boundaries and how do we figure that out?

    What I know is that the Constitution stipulates that judicial decisions will be resolved by SCOTUS. They have looked at the issue and have determined that it is not an absolute right.
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,977
    Fulton, MD
    I said that the 2A "does not define the extent of the right" and so we are on the same page in that respect.

    Where we differ is how to determine the extent of the right. If something is not part of the right then you cannot infringe the right by banning that something.

    You are implying that it is an absolute right. What is your basis for claiming that it is an absolute right? If it is not absolute what are the boundaries and how do we figure that out?

    What I know is that the Constitution stipulates that judicial decisions will be resolved by SCOTUS. They have looked at the issue and have determined that it is not an absolute right.

    I will admit that we, as a civil society, must allow some rights to be limited. My right to fire a gun willy-nilly at my neighbors' houses must in fact be limited because by doing so I impede on their rights.

    However, the right to keep and bear arms does not in and of itself impede on anyone's rights. So why should I allow the government to limit the right?

    How does my "keeping and bearing" RPG's, tanks, fighter bombers impede on anyone's rights? Likewise for 30rd magazines, AR-15 government barrel profiles, and full automatic machine guns.

    It's in the government's interest to limit what I keep and bear. I never understood how we can entrust the ability to overthrow a tyrannical government to that very same government.

    And I believe SCOTUS is in error in determining the 2A is not an absolute right. It is in their interest to rule against it.
     

    rbird7282

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 6, 2012
    18,739
    Columbia
    I said that the 2A "does not define the extent of the right" and so we are on the same page in that respect.



    Where we differ is how to determine the extent of the right. If something is not part of the right then you cannot infringe the right by banning that something.



    You are implying that it is an absolute right. What is your basis for claiming that it is an absolute right? If it is not absolute what are the boundaries and how do we figure that out?



    What I know is that the Constitution stipulates that judicial decisions will be resolved by SCOTUS. They have looked at the issue and have determined that it is not an absolute right.



    What is the basis for SCOTUS to determine that it's not an absolute right? They are WRONG on this (and many other things)
    The SCOTUS has been eroding our rights and making up new ones for decades.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Robert2888

    Active Member
    Nov 5, 2013
    897
    Westmoreland,VA
    What is the basis for SCOTUS to determine that it's not an absolute right? They are WRONG on this (and many other things)
    The SCOTUS has been eroding our rights and making up new ones for decades.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Their lawyers. If anything was simple as it sounded there would be no need for the parasites to gain on issues they created.
     

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