C&R winding down

[BrewDoc_MD]

You could let it expire. Wait a month+, then start over with a clean log. I believe another member or two has done this.

I'm doing this. Mine expired last month and I'll reapply in August or September. It certainly pays for itself quickly.

 

[Docster]

The sooner people keep talking about loop holes in the C&R regulations and how firearm records will no longer be available, the sooner the Antis and the ATF can swoop in and change the regulations.

I would say it's more like, 'the more frequently people keep talking about laxities in the C&R requirements ON A PUBLIC FORUM, the quicker the Antis and the BATF will swoop in to change them". I see no loopholes but worry about changes.

 

[rseymorejr]

I would say it's more like, 'the more frequently people keep talking about laxities in the C&R requirements ON A PUBLIC FORUM, the quicker the Antis and the BATF will swoop in to change them". I see no loopholes but worry about changes.

I don't really see any laxities or loopholes in the C&R system.
You send all your info to the ATF, you send the sellers a copy of your license and you agree to log all of your transactions. The ATF has the right to look at your log if they want to. Everything is aboveboard. If anything this just reinforces the fact that lawful gun owners are NOT the problem

 

[JamesH]

I don't really see any laxities or loopholes in the C&R system.

The "let your FFL03 lapse for a month, then start a new bound book" sounds like a loophole to me, albeit a small one. Especially since FFL03 holders don't have to turn their book over to ATF when they let their license lapse.

I'd be interested to know how long after your license expires you have to keep the bound book records. I bet it's not "you don't", even if ATF loses their right to an annual inspection.

 

[PJDiesel]

Actually, I think it is immediately.

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[TapRackBang]

The "let your FFL03 lapse for a month, then start a new bound book" sounds like a loophole to me, albeit a small one.

That's not a loophole, that's The Law. We obey The Law.

I'd be interested to know how long after your license expires you have to keep the bound book records. I bet it's not "you don't", even if ATF loses their right to an annual inspection.

0.000 seconds after you license expires. Read The Law. If you don't have a C&R license (you don't the millisecond it expires), you are not a C&R licensee and thus not bound by the law for C&R license holders.

 

[JamesH]

That's not a loophole, that's The Law. We obey The Law.

You do realize that loopholes only exist if they are The Law. If it weren't legal, it wouldn't be a loophole.

0.000 seconds after you license expires. Read The Law. If you don't have a C&R license (you don't the millisecond it expires), you are not a C&R licensee and thus not bound by the law for C&R license holders.

Thanks for the tip. I Read the Law and 27 CFR 478.129(e) says records "prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors ... shall be retained through December 15, 1988, after which records of transactions over 20 years of age may be discarded." Regardless of when you stop being a licensee, that record will always have been "prepared by a licensed collector".

Now, I did find ATF stating in a newsletter that that doesn't apply to C&R licensees, but they have changed their minds before. Do you want to rely on ATF's interpretation of the law when they are so good at flipping on us?

That aside, why would you ever dispose of sales records? What happens when a cop knocks on your door because they are tracing a gun used in a crime, and the previous FFL in the chain points to you? Legal requirement or no, you can bet I'll have a record of every gun I ever sell to cover my own ass.

 

[Boom Boom]

I Read the Law and 27 CFR 478.129(e) says records "prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors ... shall be retained through December 15, 1988, after which records of transactions over 20 years of age may be discarded." Regardless of when you stop being a licensee, that record will always have been "prepared by a licensed collector".

Now, I did find ATF stating in a newsletter that that doesn't apply to C&R licensees, but they have changed their minds before. Do you want to rely on ATF's interpretation of the law when they are so good at flipping on us?

That aside, why would you ever dispose of sales records? What happens when a cop knocks on your door because they are tracing a gun used in a crime, and the previous FFL in the chain points to you? Legal requirement or no, you can bet I'll have a record of every gun I ever sell to cover my own ass.

The 20-yr requirement is for businesses, not collectors. It's why ATF has an Out-of-Business Records Center, where the word "business" excludes collectors per the regulations. Collectors can immediately "dispose of" the bound book when their license expires. As I recall, in the big packet that ATF sends out after issuing the license, it's clearly stated in one of the documents. As far as "keeping" the bound book afterwards, it's semantics. What was a federally-regulated bound book while you were licensed converts into your personal records. Personal records no longer within ATF purview. Legally speaking, if asked afterwards if you still have a "bound book", you can and probably should answer no since "bound book" is formal ATF terminology that only applies while your license is active. At the same time, the detailed personal records you end up with provide a reasonably-solid legal backing if issues ever arise.

 

[Doctor_M]

I'm hooked on mine... feeds the collector bug for sure. We are doing a family road trip out to SD to see Mount Rushmore... I plan on having a few copies of my license with me, just in case I see anything interesting along the way :-)

I'm pretty sure that at a minimum, some magazines will hitchhike back with us... got to take advantage of these trips to America.

 

[JamesH]

The 20-yr requirement is for businesses, not collectors.

The phrase "licensed collector" is used specifically, in addition to "licensed dealer". I don't see any other way to read it.

Everyone else is welcome to maintain their records as they see fit. I will follow my more stringent interpretation... Which doesn't matter, since I have no intention to let my FFL03 lapse.

 

[TapRackBang]

That aside, why would you ever dispose of sales records? What happens when a cop knocks on your door because they are tracing a gun used in a crime, and the previous FFL in the chain points to you? Legal requirement or no, you can bet I'll have a record of every gun I ever sell to cover my own ass.

Your whole post suggests you have a bad case of BGOS. I'm sorry for your suffering. I recommend you go to a gun store immediately and buy a fine C&R rifle to comfort yourself.

That aside, we aren't talking about sales records, we are talking about the regultion-defined Bound Book that the ATF has a right to see at any time without cause. The two are not the same for me even if they do have duplicate information.

 

[fred333]

I specifically asked if they cared that the address would be incorrect for a period of time and "Dan" just said "no big deal."

Famous last words.... Did you get that in writing with the document signed by the CSR in front of a state certified notary?

 

[AssMan]

Famous last words.... Did you get that in writing with the document signed by the CSR in front of a state certified notary?

No, that's why I posted it on the forum. I mean, what choice do I have? Guess I could call back and ask for an email?


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[smokedog]

I have every intention of keeping all my records because one never knows.

 

[fred333]

Guess I could call back and ask for an email?

 

[john_bud]

Funny, I just sent in a check for $30. 2nd renewal. Haven't bought any c&r in the past 3 years either. But more than saved on parts etc.

 

[Machodoc]

I have every intention of keeping all my records because one never knows.

Sure ... it's probably a good idea to keep any and all records, especially if you have them in digital and hard-copy formats. I don't see how it hurts.

But, that said, there's a certain appeal to being able to start a new logbook, especially if your old one was getting rather lengthy. You still have to log in any C&R sales as coming from your collection, of course, but if you get audited and they want to see a particular firearm (or firearms), it might make it easier to be able to quickly put your hands onto a recent purchase.

 

[nobis1]

My license ended today. I have loved my C & R, but I am taking a break. It is too easy to talk myself into "just one more." Will probably renew later on, but I need to save some money.

 

[Machodoc]

My license ended today. I have loved my C & R, but I am taking a break. It is too easy to talk myself into "just one more." Will probably renew later on, but I need to save some money.

It doesn't work like that. Now you'll just start seeing the guns that wanted before, but you passed up because they weren't C$R, ant you'll think, "What the hell ..."

 

[nobis1]

It doesn't work like that. Now you'll just start seeing the guns that wanted before, but you passed up because they weren't C$R, ant you'll think, "What the hell ..."

Very true... Gonna see how long I can hold out. Been seeing some nice S and W revolvers at Simpsons, and I would bet they will have some cherry K 11's next week that will make me go "damn it."