Tumbling

[coopermania]

Here is the Second email from Schuetzen Powder the next post is the first email I sent

Why would you want to tumble loaded ammunition? Yes, VERY DANGEROUS!
------------------------------------------James Kirkland james@schuetzenpowder.com

7650 US Hwy. 287, #100 Arlington, Texas 76001

817-478-8888 Fax 817-478-8891 schuetzenpowder.com https://www.facebook.com/schuetzen.blackpowder

On Feb 10, 2014, at 6:33 PM, Mr Smith <rsmithotis@aol.com> wrote:

Thank You Mr Kirkland for responding so quickly, I was asking about tumbling / vibrating loaded ammunition Sir.

 

[coopermania]

This is the first email I sent to Schuetzen Powder
Now this is black powder just to cover all areas.

Not sure about the steps that your using but after I fire my rounds, I de-prime the brass and put them into a water bottle. When I get home, I drain the bottle, put the brass into my thumbler’s tumbler and add a cap full of the cleaning solution that comes with my ceramic medium and run it for a couple of hours. Then I rinse and dry. Ready for another go.

The only issue is if you’re tumbling rounds with live powder.

Sincerely, ames

------------------------------------------James Kirkland james@schuetzenpowder.com

7650 US Hwy. 287, #100 Arlington, Texas 76001

817-478-8888 Fax 817-478-8891 schuetzenpowder.com https://www.facebook.com/schuetzen.blackpowder

On Feb 10, 2014, at 4:22 PM, Mr Smith <rsmithotis@aol.com> wrote:

Hello James, I shoot BPCR with a 45-70, Lately I have read some internet posts about cleaning reloaded ammo through a tumbler / vibrator for a cleaning after its loaded, Is this a safe practice using Schuetzen Black powder ?. Thank You Sir, Mr Smith Sent from my Kyocera Rise

 

[coopermania]

Oh my all the way from Sweden,

Dear Sir,

We don´t practice that here. We prefer to clean the components separately.

Med vänlig hälsning / Best regards Caroline Högdahl Koordinator/Customer Support Norma Precision AB Jägargatan SE-670 40 Åmotfors, Sweden Dir line: +46 571 315 54 caroline.hogdahl@norma.cc www.norma.cc

Verifierade laddata finns på vår webbplats www.norma.cc eller i Normas Laddmanual. Förslag på alternativa laddningar som erhålls från Normas Tekniska support är att betrakta som riktlinjer och ersätter ej data publicerat enligt ovan.

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----Från:Mr Smith [mailto:rsmithotis@aol.com] Skickat: den 10 februari 2014 23:48 Till: support Ämne: A safe practice ?

Hello Sir, Ma'am I have been reading on some internet posts that it is ok to tumble / vibrate in order to clean reloaded ammunition after it has been loaded. Is this a safe practice using Norma Smokeless Powder ? I just want to be safe before I do this. Thank you, mr smith Sent from my Kyocera Rise

 

[BUFF7MM]

Glad to see the emails coopermania.

 

[Karl]

Oh my all the way from Sweden,

Dear Sir,

We don´t practice that here. We prefer to clean the components separately.

Med vänlig hälsning / Best regards Caroline Högdahl Koordinator/Customer Support Norma Precision AB Jägargatan SE-670 40 Åmotfors, Sweden Dir line: +46 571 315 54 caroline.hogdahl@norma.cc www.norma.cc

Verifierade laddata finns på vår webbplats www.norma.cc eller i Normas Laddmanual. Förslag på alternativa laddningar som erhålls från Normas Tekniska support är att betrakta som riktlinjer och ersätter ej data publicerat enligt ovan.

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----Från:Mr Smith [mailto:rsmithotis@aol.com] Skickat: den 10 februari 2014 23:48 Till: support Ämne: A safe practice ?

Hello Sir, Ma'am I have been reading on some internet posts that it is ok to tumble / vibrate in order to clean reloaded ammunition after it has been loaded. Is this a safe practice using Norma Smokeless Powder ? I just want to be safe before I do this. Thank you, mr smith Sent from my Kyocera Rise

She never answered your question.

 

[trickg]

She never answered your question.

And more to the point, no one is providing any kind of data to support it.

I got an email from Mike Daily (Hodgdon/Winchester) stating the same thing, although he did say that at one point tests were conducted and stated that, "...the powder was degraded if the ammo is exposed to vibration/agitation over extended times."

What has never been fully answered is the definition of "extended times," and more to the point, I have yet to see any of the results of these tests. When were they done, how were they conducted, and do the conditions of the test bear any similarity or resemblence to what might happen on reloader's reloading bench?

I see a bunch of people regurgitating the same long-held beliefs that tumbling is dangerous, but I have yet to see any real data that supports the idea that moderate tumbling to remove lubricants and put a slight polish on the rounds is actually harmful. To the contrary, there are a number of handloaders who had taken it to task themselves, and the data in those cases directly contradicts the conventionally held belief that tumbling loaded rounds is dangerous.

Back in the mid 1800s there was a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis who suggested that washing hands between patients and keeping conditions sanitized with chrlorinated lime solutions would prevent infection and even death in subsequent patients - women who were coming to the clinic for childbirth. He was disparaged by his fellow doctors who ostracized him from the medical community because his beliefs didn't jibe with the conventionally idea that his sanitary practices were a waste of time and had no bearing on the spread of infectious diseases. Of couse we now know the science behind it, but sometimes it takes a lot of effort break through and make a dent in traditionally held beliefs and practices.

 

[coopermania]

She never answered your question.

So Karl the statement ' We don't practice that here ' would mean what ??

So if you asked the school Counselor do you all spank kids that are bad ?
And the Counselor answered, We don't practice that here.

To me that would say we don't spank kids here. I don't see how you could interpret anything else from that statement.

Its a scrolling email, my question is near the bottom and the response is near the top.

 

[BUFF7MM]

This is the part I find odd, the Lake city that I've always seen still shows the discoloration from where it was annealed, the government wants to see it like that so thay know it was done, so why is military brass still discolored if it was tumbled after loading, I'm pretty sure it wasn't annealed after it was loaded.

I'm still waiting for trickq to explain how the annealing mark stays on the brass if it's supposedly tumbled after loading, I must be on his ignore list.

 

[Mooseman]

I'm still waiting for trickq to explain how the annealing mark stays on the brass if it's supposedly tumbled after loading, I must be on his ignore list.

This will cover you unless I'm on his ignore list as well.

 

[Karl]

So Karl the statement ' We don't practice that here ' would mean what ??

So if you asked the school Counselor do you all spank kids that are bad ?
And the Counselor answered, We don't practice that here.

To me that would say we don't spank kids here. I don't see how you could interpret anything else from that statement.

Its a scrolling email, my question is near the bottom and the response is near the top.

Actually she said "We don´t practice that here. We prefer to clean the components separately."

Not a single letter in there stated tumbling live ammo is dangerous.
If powder was so sensitive to break down there would be no guns what so ever.
Shipping Ammo/powder by car, truck, ship or plane would be to dangerous.
Walking/running with ammo in you pocket, mag, clip or drum would be to dangerous.
Shooting would be dangerous due to the recoil breaking down the powder in the remaining rounds.
Having the powder go through the funnel to your brass during the reloading procedure would be to dangerous as the powder would start to break down.

Hell just pouring the powder out of the original package would be too dangerous.


Old myths are hard to kill.

 

[coopermania]

And more to the point, no one is providing any kind of data to support it.

I got an email from Mike Daily (Hodgdon/Winchester) stating the same thing, although he did say that at one point tests were conducted and stated that, "...the powder was degraded if the ammo is exposed to vibration/agitation over extended times."

What has never been fully answered is the definition of "extended times," and more to the point, I have yet to see any of the results of these tests. When were they done, how were they conducted, and do the conditions of the test bear any similarity or resemblence to what might happen on reloader's reloading bench?

I see a bunch of people regurgitating the same long-held beliefs that tumbling is dangerous, but I have yet to see any real data that supports the idea that moderate tumbling to remove lubricants and put a slight polish on the rounds is actually harmful. To the contrary, there are a number of handloaders who had taken it to task themselves, and the data in those cases directly contradicts the conventionally held belief that tumbling loaded rounds is dangerous.

Back in the mid 1800s there was a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis who suggested that washing hands between patients and keeping conditions sanitized with chrlorinated lime solutions would prevent infection and even death in subsequent patients - women who were coming to the clinic for childbirth. He was disparaged by his fellow doctors who ostracized him from the medical community because his beliefs didn't jibe with the conventionally idea that his sanitary practices were a waste of time and had no bearing on the spread of infectious diseases. Of couse we now know the science behind it, but sometimes it takes a lot of effort break through and make a dent in traditionally held beliefs and practices.

Now Trick, Don't change the question now, The question has been is it safe to tumble / vibrate loaded ammunition,

Now why did you not post the email from Hodgdon , Winchester ?
With everyone's names ?

They don't have to give any data for anything, I myself did not ask for any data.

So what does Dr Cheese Undermydick with sanitary issues have to do this conversation?.

I bet you got plenty of emails from powder co, They just don't say what you want them to say.

 

[Karl]

So what does Dr Cheese Undermydick with sanitary issues have to do this conversation?.

Probably as much as the school Counselors spanking kids or not.

 

[coopermania]

Probably as much as the school Counselors spanking kids or not.

Well just let me regress a bit more than, I figured you needed help understand.

Now maybe since you make Swedish Pancakes you could read it and understand the Doctors name ( doctor Ignaz Semmelweis ) Now to a lowly uneducated peon like myself It reads Dr Cheese Undermydick.

If you got some humor or something worthwhile to offer this conversation feel free.
Thanks for playing,

 

[coopermania]

Actually she said "We don´t practice that here. We prefer to clean the components separately."

Not a single letter in there stated tumbling live ammo is dangerous.
If powder was so sensitive to break down there would be no guns what so ever.
Shipping Ammo/powder by car, truck, ship or plane would be to dangerous.
Walking/running with ammo in you pocket, mag, clip or drum would be to dangerous.
Shooting would be dangerous due to the recoil breaking down the powder in the remaining rounds.
Having the powder go through the funnel to your brass during the reloading procedure would be to dangerous as the powder would start to break down.

Hell just pouring the powder out of the original package would be too dangerous.


Old myths are hard to kill.

You are 100 posts behind, Go forth and read from the beginning.
RIF Reading is Fundamental

 

[Pinecone]

I'm still waiting for trickq to explain how the annealing mark stays on the brass if it's supposedly tumbled after loading, I must be on his ignore list.

It would depend on how long and what type of media.

I can still see the annealing mark on .223 brass that has been tumbled a couple of times. For 15 - 20 minutes each time, using corn cob media with a very small amount of Dillon polish.

They look clean, but not shined.

 

[BUFF7MM]

It would depend on how long and what type of media.

I can still see the annealing mark on .223 brass that has been tumbled a couple of times. For 15 - 20 minutes each time, using corn cob media with a very small amount of Dillon polish.

They look clean, but not shined.

I knew you'd have the answer.

 

[jjones88]

As an outsider, so far only Trickg has shown any evidence to what powder looks like after a vibration session. All the other companies have taken the lawyer's way out. (and no just because you have a "Dr." in front of you name means you are the be-all-end-all subject matter expert)

There is a significant different between high g/RMS and low g/RMS and duration times. It's been stated by coopermania that companies tumble after the process to do a final "clean-up". I would guess that is a low g/RMS for a short duration.

A question I would ask a company, is how does your ammunition not break down after a 3 hour flight on a helo? The rotor chop on a Huey and 53E puts out high g/RMS for a sustained period of time. We have weapons on board firing ammo that (per all of the guidance shown above) should not be functional, i.e. powder has broken down. So does that mean that the military gets a different powder with different characteristics? Or do they get a little notice in their ammo can that says "Sorry, you cannot vibrate this ammo as the powder will break down and possibly won't work"?

As an engineer, I say myth busted

*edit* If you are interested in the vibration profile the ammo on a military aircraft must survive, see MIL-STD-810E/F/G (revision depends on aircraft and when the requirements went on contract)
http://assistdocs.com/search/search_basic.cfm (type 810 in the Document Number)

 

[Karl]

Well just let me regress a bit more than, I figured you needed help understand.

Now maybe since you make Swedish Pancakes you could read it and understand the Doctors name ( doctor Ignaz Semmelweis ) Now to a lowly uneducated peon like myself It reads Dr Cheese Undermydick.

If you got some humor or something worthwhile to offer this conversation feel free.
Thanks for playing,

I am Swedish, not German.
I wont fight the mighty forum warrior, I have fought them enough back home to learn the pointlessness of it.

 

[BigDaddy]

I'm still waiting for trickq to explain how the annealing mark stays on the brass if it's supposedly tumbled after loading, I must be on his ignore list.

Annealing is not a surface treatment, it changes the structure of the brass full thickness.

 

[BUFF7MM]

Annealing is not a surface treatment, it changes the structure of the brass full thickness.

It also discolors the brass, thus the darker section toward the mouth of the case and that's what I'm talking about.
If you put spent cases in a tumbler it takes the discoloration away.