Tumbling

[DocSavage]

In all I've read it seems that the OP asked a question and the answer has been given - in spades.

Is it safe to tumble loaded rounds...

Some say yes, "hell I do it all the time with no issue..."

Some say no, "this is a prohibited practice according to EVERY reloading manual..."

Even the manufacturers have an ambiguous approach, with one company, Lapua, saying that they tumble for a short time to clean up any residuals, and other companies saying they don't...

Seems to me that were at an old fashioned standoff, with the original question not being answered completely. Each side wants to claim victory here, but in reality we're left with the same question... Is it truly safe?

It seems this way, for the result we as reloaders are seeking... Clean rounds, shiny and ready for use, a quick trip in the vibratory tumbler won't do too much harm... Rotaries are out in this application. Many of the manufacturers buzz their loads prior to boxing... Tumbling both ways shows me that finish vibe tumbling more than 10-15 mins is a waste anyway for cleaning up fingerprints and errant lube anyway...

Take the knowledge and experience of those who have left comments in this thread and use it in your practice. Each of my four books say something different, I WORK MY LOADS for my needs, in this case you should too!

Is vibe tumbling safe? Seems so, do you need it in your reloading practice?

/thread

 

[coopermania]

In all I've read it seems that the OP asked a question and the answer has been given - in spades.

Is it safe to tumble loaded rounds...

Some say yes, "hell I do it all the time with no issue..."

Some say no, "this is a prohibited practice according to EVERY reloading manual..."

Even the manufacturers have an ambiguous approach, with one company, Lapua, saying that they tumble for a short time to clean up any residuals, and other companies saying they don't...

Seems to me that were at an old fashioned standoff, with the original question not being answered completely. Each side wants to claim victory here, but in reality we're left with the same question... Is it truly safe?

It seems this way, for the result we as reloaders are seeking... Clean rounds, shiny and ready for use, a quick trip in the vibratory tumbler won't do too much harm... Rotaries are out in this application. Many of the manufacturers buzz their loads prior to boxing... Tumbling both ways shows me that finish vibe tumbling more than 10-15 mins is a waste anyway for cleaning up fingerprints and errant lube anyway...

Take the knowledge and experience of those who have left comments in this thread and use it in your practice. Each of my four books say something different, I WORK MY LOADS for my needs, in this case you should too!

Is vibe tumbling safe? Seems so, do you need it in your reloading practice?

/thread

Please tell me Doc, When you buy medical equipment does it come with Do's and Don'ts
Written in the instruction manual ?? Do you just plug it in and turn it on ?

When you fill up a schringe do you use the charts for the correct amount or do you ignore the instructions from the maufacture ?

When you load ammunition do you use the manufactures data / published reloading data or
Do you just blindly load whatever powder you have availble ?

 

[DocSavage]

Please tell me Doc, When you buy medical equipment does it come with Do's and Don'ts Written in the instruction manual ?? Do you just plug it in and turn it on ? When you fill up a schringe do you use the charts for the correct amount or do you ignore the instructions from the maufacture ? When you load ammunition do you use the manufactures data / published reloading data or Do you just blindly load whatever powder you have availble ?

I can't even begin to describe the amount of off label uses pharmaceuticals have or for that matter medical equipment has.

Believe me, my practice is protocol based, but allows for "latitude" for real world scenarios of which I was involved just days ago...

That being said, we are all big boys in our reloading practice, and those guidelines are just those GUIDELINES... I maintain a library of five reloading manuals, and look at all of them for the most current information. I also peruse forums like these, to make sure I'm current in my data.

For example, Hornady's 9th has a few glaring errors regarding my 300BLK loads which I discovered through this very forum, and confirmed through calling Hornady.

Discussions like these are invaluable for the progression of our passion in the practice of reloading, but like any practice, some of what we do is anecdotal. We share what works, what doesn't, in the hopes that information is passed on and learned from, maybe making someone else's practice more sound.

Ultimately, it is for the reader to choose what information he chooses as sage advice - no different in medicine to which I'm sure Doc Aitch and Teratos will attest.

Is the answer to this question written in stone? No. There are plenty of real evidentiary opinions proffered here, with the official guidelines from manufacturers to boot...

Seems like YMMV as quite appropriate here...

Doc S.

PS: Do I vibe loaded rounds? Nope. Not because I don't think it's safe, I'm one of those who cleans 'em up one by one as my last step in inspection... I'm geeky that way.

 

[jjones88]

Please tell me Doc, When you buy medical equipment does it come with Do's and Don'ts
Written in the instruction manual ?? Do you just plug it in and turn it on ?

When you fill up a schringe do you use the charts for the correct amount or do you ignore the instructions from the maufacture ?

When you load ammunition do you use the manufactures data / published reloading data or
Do you just blindly load whatever powder you have availble ?

It comes back to the fact that you have ZERO data to back you up. There is no comparison to loaded data instructions. One can visually see the pressure effects on the cartridge as you go up towards the max. There has been zero effort from you minus the fact that you like to chastise people blatantly pointing out that the company is producing a lawyer statement. Instructions cover even the 1% chance that it may even happen.

I know now what it's like to go to Annapolis and testify to the gun grabbers. They just don't listen, plug their ears and go "na-na-na guns are badddd". And that's my analogy here: "not gonna listen, just keep repeating myself until I can say I WIN!!"

 

[coopermania]

Here is my second response from Caroline at Norma Powder and Ammunition.
Its a little change up in there testing and answer. The names have not been changed here because I dont have anything to hide. As before my email is on the bottom and hers is on top.

Dear Sir,

No, we do not think it is dangerous unless the process is violent. The risks as we see it is partly the primers. When we run primers in vibrations, independently of brand, minor particles from the priming compound get loose and sooner or later create a good bang. Therefore, we think there´s a small risk that the primer partially will be broken and then the ignition will be bad or maybe not will fire of at all. It could also be a risk that the extraction forces decreases when the cartridges hitting against each other. We have no evidence, just a though.

Med vänlig hälsning / Best regards Caroline Högdahl Koordinator/Customer Support Norma Precision AB Jägargatan SE-670 40 Åmotfors, Sweden Dir line: +46 571 315 54 caroline.hogdahl@norma.cc www.norma.cc

Verifierade laddata finns på vår webbplats www.norma.cc eller i Normas Laddmanual. Förslag på alternativa laddningar som erhålls från Normas Tekniska support är att betrakta som riktlinjer och ersätter ej data publicerat enligt ovan.

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----Från: Mr Smith [mailto:rsmithotis@aol.com] Skickat: den 11 februari 2014 18:26 Till: support Ämne: Re: SV: A safe practice ?

Dear Caroline, What I am asking, Is this a safe or dangerous practice, I tumble my brass before I load but is it safe to tumble / vibrate my loaded ammunition. Thank You.

 

[Mooseman]

Childish response. I resemble that remark.

 

[Norton]

Man, some folks are going to get a vacation over a thread int he reloading forum. That might be a first.

 

[Magnumite]

Perhaps, then some would know agreeing to disagree is fine about some subjects. Face it, we are all going to shut our computers down, assimilate all our reading and past learning and do what we are going to do at our loading benches. Most of us will do so intelligently and with prudence. The way I've read this debate is take the info and decide for yourself.

 

[trickg]

I got an email back from Alliant. They regurgitated the same thing without answering the question about whether they had done testing themselves, and added the bit about the point of a bullet touching off a primer during tumbling, which we all know is not going to happen - there has to be a certain amount of force to crush the ignition compound against the anvil inside of the primer, and that's just not going to happen in a vibratory tumbler. If primers were that sensitive we wouldn't be able to safely insert them into a shell casing.

I'm going to write him back and ask why he completely dodged the main question that I asked. I realize that he's probably bound by legal liability and can only trot out the same line that they've been using, but it irritates me that he apparently thinks I'm dumb enough to be placated with the response he sent.

 

[coopermania]

I had to ask Norma twice before they gave me anything worthwhile, I would think alliant is saying what Norma is saying in there email to me. So much as if tumbled / vibrated the primers will break down and priming compound migrates into the main body of the brass or it cracks and eventualy and will go pop.( I assume in the tumbler / vibrator ) missfire or not fire at all.

 

[Pinecone]

and added the bit about the point of a bullet touching off a primer during tumbling, which we all know is not going to happen - there has to be a certain amount of force to crush the ignition compound against the anvil inside of the primer, and that's just not going to happen in a vibratory tumbler.

That is one reason I think the advice to not tumble is from before vibratory tumblers were common.

When I started reloading, most tumblers with the rotary type, like a Thumbler's Tumbler. And I could see a possibility of a pointed FMJ striking another primer fairly hard.

From the Lyman site:

With the introduction of the Turbo Tumbler vibratory case polishers, Lyman revolutionized the way reloaders prepared fired cases.

And this is just after a paragraph about the company going back to being privately owned in 1978.

 

[rico903]

I don't reload yet but I have a friend who makes reloads to sell at shows and online. I've been at his shop and seen a dozen vibratory tumblers all going with complete ammo in them to get the lube off and he says he has never had a problem in 15 years which surprised me. Just saying.I think this is one of those threads with an endless life. I also think if you followed every gun manual to a T no one would be shooting reloads at all.

 

[trickg]

I think that this thread has had some interesting things in it that have made it worthwhile. There were a couple of complaints about it being a pissing contest between egos and all of that, but I think that some great information has come out of it, both in regard to how to do things to maintain the highest levels of safety possible, and in looking at things from a reasonable risk perspective.

What I've gotten out of this is that I probably won't change how I do things - I'll probably tumble my fired brass prior to resizing and reloading and that will be that. There really isn't a reason that I see to change that process because I don't necessarily think that having really clean, shiny reloads is going to give me any additional performance, and I've always been a "form follows function" kind of guy. Even some of my older loads are still more than clean enough to function without issue. I say this with the full belief that tumbling loaded rounds is safe within reasonable parameters - I just don't see the need to do it that way. If I tumble before I size, it keeps my dies cleaner too.

Having said that, if I were ever to come into some ammo that was really, really cruddy, I might tumble it for a bit to knock the gunk off of it. From what I have seen and read in the last several days where we've been discussing this, there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with tumbling live rounds, provided that the amount of time is kept reasonable - 15-20 minutes at the outside should be enough to clean up those rounds, and should be perfectly safe to do.

 

[Pinecone]

BTW, I tumble loaded rounds for two reasons.

1) If they are loaded on a progressive in one step, I tumble to remove lube.

2) If I am loading for future use, I tumble for a short period to remove any fingerprints or such that might cause corrosion over time.

And 15 - 20 minutes is all I do.

 

[coopermania]

Here is my email from Lyman, It took them 5 or 6 days to answer me.


Mr smith,

A customer support staff member has replied to your support request, #260938 with the following response:

Sorry, we have not actually tried to test this, but are quite confident that it could lead to trouble. The powder inside the case can have its coating that helps control the burn rate removed by the vibration. This can then alter the burn rate of the powder and change the pressure level that the charge produces.

We hope this response has sufficiently answered your questions. If not, please do not send another email. Instead, reply to this email or login to your account for a complete archive of all your support requests and responses.

 

[coopermania]

I myself find it interesting that all of these company's that manufacture powder, reloading tools and components and say they have never tested to see what happens when tumbling / vibrating loaded ammunition .I find it hard to believe they have never done it to see what if anything happens.
Good thread.

 

[MedievalEngineer]

The powder inside the case can have its coating that helps control the burn rate removed by the vibration. This can then alter the burn rate of the powder and change the pressure level that the charge produces.

Anyone else find this interesting? I wonder what coating they're talking about.

 

[coopermania]

For Starters,
Most smokeless powders are coated with graphite so they will flow through powder measures and funnels. Smokeless powders are also coated with various chemicals to make them more water resistant, to control burning and reduce muzzle flash. Because smokeless powders can deteriorate over time—due to the generation of nitric acid—small amounts of stabilizers are added to absorb acidic byproducts.
You can wikipedia ' smokeless powder 'and read more if you are interested

 

[euchre98]

As a regular victim of strange accidents and happenings. One friend of mine routinely tell start to tell me how something works then say say oh yea... if it can remotely happen it will happen to me. So no F-in way will I tumble live rounds

 

[Pinecone]

The funny thing is, the way they do the coating is to put the powder and graphite together and TUMBLE THEM.