Are dealers ripping us off on transfer fees?

[jvegas]

What does postage ( presumably shipping & handling ) have to do with a transfer fee ? The shippimg is paid by the buyer directly to the seller. The transfering dealer Recieves a firearm , they don't Ship anything.

The transfer forms get mailed to MSP

 

[clandestine]

Please stay with the OP's question Mr. "Master Gunsmith"

Market will bear translates to, F the Consumer for everything you can get.

Firearms are typically purchased with "Disposable Income" by the average Joe and lately most of us face uncertain futures and are a bit more frugal with our Income.

Yes you can try to F me in the short run, but consumers have long memories. It's not even buying from you, just the fact that you tried is enough to Blacklist you.

Knowing that a large number of purchases are being made by First Time gun owners "some Dealers" are taking this lack of knowledge to apply "market Will Bear" those of us that know better, excluding "Master Gunsmiths' insist on Show Me The Carfax "Dealers Invoice" on the Transfer. Fat chance, the last thing he will do is show you the 40% markup and the fact that you are paying Postage for five other guns.

Transfers are a great way to restock without paying postage.

Most Distributer sites on the net. list the "MSRP" basically the highest price a Dealer can advertise. It's like the MSRP on an Auto, which is always $5 to 10,000 more than the Local Dealer will sell the car for It's a gimmic that has worked for years, the Dealer drops $5,000 and the uninformed buyer thinks he is getting a deal, the informed buyer will walk out the door if the Salesman refuses to deal. They will immediately chase you to the door and go to ploy two "Let me talk to my manager" he will go in the back room and call you a Pr___ return and try to convince you that the manager has agreed to an additional $1,500. This only happens if you have a trade in. At this point only will discuss the Allowence for yor trade. This is refered to getting the money on the low end, they will show you your trade value from the "Book" well there are two Books the Red Book and the Black Book. You will be shown the A Hole book, where the value of your car is listed 2-$5,000 less than the actual trade value in the "Dealers Book" thus Got Ya anyway.

Long story short my Brother In Law was in the Business and I would sometimes meet him at the Bar after work with other Salesman who would laugh about the way they Got A Holes, the more the increased laugh, like the Cu__ who came in and paid full MSRP and was sent to thier Loan Officer and signed off to 21% even though she had A1 Crediit, which the Salesman gets a kickback on for the "Steering" the higher the percentage the better the kickback.

Long Story to make the point, Gun Dealers play the same games but in a different manner. Next time you do a transfer at that price insist that the Dealer will show you the Invoice on your Weapon, If not walk out the door. If enough Informed buyers do this the Shop Owner and "Master Gnsmiths" will be cooking your Hamburgers next year.

As Henny Youngman would say (Take My Wife (Valley Gunshop) Please) when they were in Towson they were a A1 Gunshop, they changed locations and moved to Parkville. Stopped in 2 years back to pick up a used .22 semi to train the kids, purchased one for a price 50% too high but I had made a promiss to take the kids out. From the start it had a problem with the trigger not engaging. Took it back for a repair, not hearing anything for two Weeks I stopped in the Shop and asked about the repair. I was informed they were new owners and did not have a Gunsmith? I just told him give me the weapon back I'll fix it myself. (I should have just went to Wally World and purchased new. Second Stupid Action, saw a .40 in the case and asked for a trade value for my as-new Glock 19, reply $75.

Havent been back since, I'm sure that owner is rightly slinging Hamburgers somewhere. Found Docs and a Pawn in Cecil County, Decent folks, fair prices, as well a Gunsmith with a Shop in the rear of his Home, an appointment only guy, but does good work. Lesson learned it pays to look around. Last paid $25 Transfer + $10 MSP. I know the Shop paid Wholesale and I was paying Retail, however since I have a C&R I get to sign in on the Dealers Page. Seeing the Wholesale price as oppoosed to what I was paying Retail I could see his Markup was still less than MSRP. The $25 just covered the Postage, his money was made on the markup, same as if he had the Gun is stock. I don't mind paying Retail, he runs a business not a Charity. Yes I know he had to go through a little extra work but he knows I am a repeat Coustomer who will continue to get my Business. He knows I have a C&R and reload but also knows I will buy a C&R from him at Retail for the convience of being able to inspect the Weapon before purchase, not something I can do buying online. For both of us it's a Win Win situation. Treating his Clientell fairly brings his money in on volume rather than key holing a single purchase.

Eddie O

Not sure where you went off the rails but you and I used to be on good terms, or so I thought. I even remember talking you into staying on MDS after you getting angry at the "Cop Hate".

Something about me being a Gunsmith really, really upsets a certain group of people here on MDS. Can you say "Master Gunsmith" again? Not sure what your focus is here about that. Are you saying Im not a master at my trade? Is so, do you care to have a challenge at Smithing skill? We can makes the stakes really big in case you think I am bluffing.

The topic is transfers, not dealer pricing. No such thing as MSRP for transfers. For the record a place offering something for a higher price than your willing to pay is NOT "trying to F you". Its business, also known as capitalism.

Lets clear some things up. #1 the shop I work at (Part Time) is primarily a Gunsmith Location. We dont even perform transfers because we dont have room to do so. #2 Combine what I make at my main job (I.T.) and Gunsmithing (Part Time) and I make more than you ever have as a LEO, and Im only 35. Unless something really bad happens to me I wont ever be flipping burgers except for my family at a cookout.

Lots of ill will towards Gun Dealers and myself. Pretty sad. I honestly wish the best for you.

I know more about the Gun Business than most of the armchair posters do because I have lived it.

 

[blindnoodle]

I cant answer for other shops because I dont know what they pay for the following:


Attorney Consultation/Retainers
Income/Business/Property Taxes
Rent/Property
Safes/Secure Storage
Data/Paperwork Backup
Labor Costs
Bank Loans
Insurance
Medical Insurance/Unemployment/Disability/Benefits
Utilities
Supplies
Advertising
Business Licenses
Business Services


To claim a business is price is gouging without knowing a business owners expenses/investment is unfair and dishonest to the core.

So to answer my question, there are no charges from MSP.

Business license is less than $200 per year btw. Trivial to even add that into your list. Many of the items you list are also incidental costs to the shop whether they do transfers or not. Some do not even pertain to transfers. Bank loan to do transfers? Really?

Give me a break. Transfers are services that are damn near all profit. At the absolute MOST, a transfer MIGHT cost $20 to the business. Claiming high transfer fees are "necessary" is a joke. We all know not charging $75 per transfer and still being profitable by a wide margin is possible because many shops do it! Almost all shops outside of MD do it, and many inside MD don't charge nearly that! But in MD, because the checks are done by MSP and not through NICS, some shops claim it is oooo sooooo burdensome so they have to claim an exorbitant fee.

I know, I know, go open my shop. Standard reply. Instead, I moved to a free state and patron a shop with $20 transfers, in stock primers and powders for the regulars, and no ******** excuses.

 

[Billcw]

I know, I know, go open my shop. Standard reply. Instead, I moved to a free state and patron a shop with $20 transfers, in stock primers and powders for the regulars, and no ******** excuses.[/QUOTE]

So now that you are in a free state ...why even bother with MD issues then ..

 

[w2kbr]

It should be obvious, by now, that no one will "win" in this discussion.
In fact, some are just digging a deeper hole. And further, there is no
"right" answer. However, there are a few "truths" that might be
considered. Any person in business can charge whatever he feels
appropriate, for anything, Sale, Service or Labor. How his business
prospers depends on many things, and one of the biggest is his prices.

The consumer will migrate from one business to another and that
also depends on many things, one of the biggest is cost. These
are tangible variables. By in large, the consumer cares little about
Business expenses, just not in his thought pattern. He simply looks
at an item, and determines, using his own measuring stick, what he
will pay. Period.

There are those who cry "Gouge", and those who cry "Supply & Demand".
In both of these, there are some "A Priori" truths, so to speak. Both are
business theories, that result from an increase in price, one before the
increase, one after the increase. If there are no other factors that
compels the business to raise a price, except that the business sees an
increased demand, that could be considered a "gouge". While the demand
is real, if the product in question is exactly the same in overall cost to
the business, the "value added" to the product is its "demand", which
is intangible, fleeting, and only in the eyes of the Business.
Consumers, on the other hand, see no value in "Demand". They do not
care, in monetary terms, about "Demand". Therefore, an increase in
price, simply due to "Demand" is a "Gouge" in their eyes. This is
especially true if a tangible product is really no better than it was
prior to the increase. And "Demand" causes them grief because the item
is not as available as it was before, in addition to the increase

Businesses using the "Supply and Demand" excuse are really shooting
themselves in the foot. It would be much better to explain, as some
have done, the reasoning and causes behind their increases for products and
Services. Consumers know all too well about making money in their jobs,
and about getting raises in their salaries, working long hours, etc, etc.
and about a "fair day's wages for a fair day's work". Nobody, but
nobody likes higher prices. If the Price is too High, don't Buy.

R

 

[Bang1964]

It was never about how much a dealer charges for a transfer. Question was why some dealers are charging almost double what they charged 6 months ago.

Not all dealers raised transfer fees, and the one that did most likely will drop back when "demand" goes down. For myself I will be loyal to dealers that did not increase the fees.

Bottom line is they want to make more money when they can, but in the long term they will end up making less.

 

[jvegas]

So to answer my question, there are no charges from MSP.

Give me a break. Transfers are services that are damn near all profit. At the absolute MOST, a transfer MIGHT cost $20 to the business. Claiming high transfer fees are "necessary" is a joke. We all know not charging $75 per transfer and still being profitable by a wide margin is possible because many shops do it! Almost all shops outside of MD do it, and many inside MD don't charge nearly that! But in MD, because the checks are done by MSP and not through NICS, some shops claim it is oooo sooooo burdensome so they have to claim an exorbitant fee.

MSP does charge, though not on volume.

Please tell me the fees associated with a transfer, since you seem to know so much.

Also, with the current 8 day release being "early", there is more time added to a dealer's paperwork. When you do an early release right now, the 4473 gets marked "delayed". when MSP finally gives you a NTN (months later), you have to locate that 4473 and record the NTN. the time needed for that adds up when you deal with a large number of transfers.

in the past, a regulated transfer went like this:

customer contacts dealer and requests FFL sent to seller
dealer sends FFL (fax or email)
firearm arrives
dealer logs firearm in A&D book
dealer notifies buyer
buyer comes in for paperwork (sometimes buyer has to complete the 20 minute safety course at the shop)
dealer faxes or mails 77R
8 days later customer picks up
dealer logs transfer in A&D book
paperwork is filed
completed 77R is mailed to MSP


not to mention that dealers go through A&D books faster, printer ink and paper (printing forms, additional faxes and having to retain fax confirmations).

there really isnt a huge profit in a $50 transfer fee.

 

[Bang1964]

MSP does charge, though not on volume.

Please tell me the fees associated with a transfer, since you seem to know so much.

Also, with the current 8 day release being "early", there is more time added to a dealer's paperwork. When you do an early release right now, the 4473 gets marked "delayed". when MSP finally gives you a NTN (months later), you have to locate that 4473 and record the NTN. the time needed for that adds up when you deal with a large number of transfers.

in the past, a regulated transfer went like this:

customer contacts dealer and requests FFL sent to seller
dealer sends FFL (fax or email)
firearm arrives
dealer logs firearm in A&D book
dealer notifies buyer
buyer comes in for paperwork (sometimes buyer has to complete the 20 minute safety course at the shop)
dealer faxes or mails 77R
8 days later customer picks up
dealer logs transfer in A&D book
paperwork is filed
completed 77R is mailed to MSP


not to mention that dealers go through A&D books faster, printer ink and paper (printing forms, additional faxes and having to retain fax confirmations).

there really isnt a huge profit in a $50 transfer fee.

First thank you for your input and I personally think $50 is very reasonable. I pay $60 now and I really don't mind.

My question to you is if a dealer was charging $50 6 months ago do you think charging $75 +10 MSP now is gouging?

 

[smores]

Transfers are $25-35 in VA. VA is not undergoing a huge panic buying craze, uncooperative state police and other factors.


I understand MD dealers charging more, for all the reasons stated above. To walk away from customers at the counter to contact an odd-ball FFL (like on a gunbroker purchase) and have to send an FFL, make sure it got there, maybe re-fax it 2-3 times for a transfer can be a burden. Also, keep in mind the confusion regarding the 8-day release too...



Si vis pacem para bellum

follow me @DiscipleofJMB

 

[Anotherpyr]

I think the one point that may have been overlooked is that those who have raised their transfer fees may just be trying to reduce the number of requests they get. It's sort of like choosing between stopping transfers or trying to discourage them by increasing the cost to help cover the time and space they are taking up by the unusual volume.

 

[aireyc]

MSP does charge, though not on volume.

Please tell me the fees associated with a transfer, since you seem to know so much.

Also, with the current 8 day release being "early", there is more time added to a dealer's paperwork. When you do an early release right now, the 4473 gets marked "delayed". when MSP finally gives you a NTN (months later), you have to locate that 4473 and record the NTN. the time needed for that adds up when you deal with a large number of transfers.

in the past, a regulated transfer went like this:

customer contacts dealer and requests FFL sent to seller
dealer sends FFL (fax or email)
firearm arrives
dealer logs firearm in A&D book
dealer notifies buyer
buyer comes in for paperwork (sometimes buyer has to complete the 20 minute safety course at the shop)
dealer faxes or mails 77R
8 days later customer picks up
dealer logs transfer in A&D book
paperwork is filed
completed 77R is mailed to MSP


not to mention that dealers go through A&D books faster, printer ink and paper (printing forms, additional faxes and having to retain fax confirmations).

there really isnt a huge profit in a $50 transfer fee.

That doesn't even make any sense. It shouldn't matter how long it takes to go through a book or use the forms since you're still processing the same number of transactions per book/form, and you're still using the same amount of ink/paper per form. In fact, if this is an issue of time, the transfer rate should actually decrease the more apps they have to process due to fixed costs.

Not that these numbers are practical, but let's say you cover expenses in 10 transfers a month, so $5 per transfer pays for licensing, $5 for utilities, $3 for insurance, etc. For every transfer beyond the first ten, that $5 for licensing becomes profit.

I'm not arguing for either side of this debate (although a lot of these posts are really amusing). But I will say that, as usual, I think the realistic answer is somewhere between the two extremes I'm seeing in this thread.

 

[MDElite]

There are other things to consider.

-Customer transfers in a gun and he's not happy with it.
-Customer doesn't know anything about the gun and wants a lesson on how it works.
-Customer has a gun shipped in that isn't on the MD roster.
-Customer comes in, fondles every gun figuring which is best for him, goes home reads reviews orders online. Wasting the shops time.
-Dealer has to pay for inventory. Every gun transferred in is a gun not sold from inventory.
-Dealers can't keep gun cases full and survive on transfers.

 

[edhallor]

To note transfers occur in two ways, My wife went to a Dealer to buy a Western Style .22, the Dealer did not have it in Stock so he ordered one for Her. Charged her MSRP, Transfer Fee, MSP Cost, Lock and tax. I called around and found two Dealers nearby that had the .22 in stock for a fraction of the price, she never purchased a Pistol before, was happy with it so the last thing I would do was burst her bubble.

Secondly I occasionally buy on Auction Sites, Pay Postage and have it shipped to my local shop. In this case I know the only money to be made by the Dealer is in his "Transfer Fee" which I realize is low profit and for the most part a courtesy to a repeat Customer. In todays money I would not begrudge him a "reasonable" increase in charging.

Why attack the salary of a Police Officer? I'm at a total loss on that one? If I were to post the average salary after Court and Overtime I would become the subject of choice of all the Haters about their Tax money.
Cant speak for all Agencies and Ranks but my BPD Retirement comes to around $100,000 a year plus SS a 401K, Deferred Retirement Plan (DROP) and occasional sales. but what does that have to do with the OP's Question?

Also I do not take the term "Master Gunsmith" Lightly, this to me is a term one bestows on himself. Is there a recognized Certificate for Master Gunsmith? I have a BA from the University of Maryland in Criminal Justice. Is there a school in Md. that has a Major in Gunsmithing?
The OP has a legitimate question, there will be opinions on both sides of that subject, we can only speak from past experience, some good, some bad.
Lastly I know there are some damm good gunsmiths on this Board, I am not nor ever professed to be. I like most are armatures.
These personal attacks serve nothing to the OP's Question, I stay on the no WC Forum to avoid this, but cant seem to get away from it.

Seems to be if you can't justify your opinion, attack the dissenting Poster?

Facts would have it that there have been experience with Good, Bad and outright Gougers when it comes to Dealerships.

One Master Gunsmith claims a massive salary and in the same breath tries to justify an overnight 400% increase in transfer cost 1+1=3?

Please lets get back to the OP's Question "Was he the subject of gouging?"

Eddie O

 

[clandestine]

There are other things to consider.

-Customer transfers in a gun and he's not happy with it.
-Customer doesn't know anything about the gun and wants a lesson on how it works.
-Customer has a gun shipped in that isn't on the MD roster.
-Customer comes in, fondles every gun figuring which is best for him, goes home reads reviews orders online. Wasting the shops time.
-Dealer has to pay for inventory. Every gun transferred in is a gun not sold from inventory.
-Dealers can't keep gun cases full and survive on transfers.

All of the experts dont have a clue BB. They havent worked in a shop, or likely owned a small business.

 

[safecracker]

How can you say you were 'ripped off' when you willingly paid the fees??? That was a choice that YOU made.

Or maybe FFLs should just be nice guys and do transfers for free, right? Hmmmm last time I checked, most gun stores are 'for profit' ventures, NOT charities.

You think you are whining now? Call me sometime and see what my minimum charges are for any type of safe service.....LOL

Profit is NOT, has never been, and will never be a dirty word.

God Bless America and our free enterprise system!

 

[Norton]

Transfers are $25-35 in VA. VA is not undergoing a huge panic buying craze, uncooperative state police and other factors.

Nor do they have two sets of paperwork to complete for a handgun, right?

 

[Norton]

How can you say you were 'ripped off' when you willingly paid the fees??? That was a choice that YOU made.

Or maybe FFLs should just be nice guys and do transfers for free, right? Hmmmm last time I checked, most gun stores are 'for profit' ventures, NOT charities.

You think you are whining now? Call me sometime and see what my minimum charges are for any type of safe service.....LOL

Profit is NOT, has never been, and will never be a dirty word.

God Bless America and our free enterprise system!

Some people need to read some Ayn Rand and maybe they would get this.

 

[clandestine]

To note transfers occur in two ways, My wife went to a Dealer to buy a Western Style .22, the Dealer did not have it in Stock so he ordered one for Her. Charged her MSRP, Transfer Fee, MSP Cost, Lock and tax. I called around and found two Dealers nearby that had the .22 in stock for a fraction of the price, she never purchased a Pistol before, was happy with it so the last thing I would do was burst her bubble.

Secondly I occasionally buy on Auction Sites, Pay Postage and have it shipped to my local shop. In this case I know the only money to be made by the Dealer is in his "Transfer Fee" which I realize is low profit and for the most part a courtesy to a repeat Customer. In todays money I would not begrudge him a "reasonable" increase in charging.

Why attack the salary of a Police Officer? I'm at a total loss on that one? If I were to post the average salary after Court and Overtime I would become the subject of choice of all the Haters about their Tax money.
Cant speak for all Agencies and Ranks but my BPD Retirement comes to around $100,000 a year plus SS a 401K, Deferred Retirement Plan (DROP) and occasional sales. but what does that have to do with the OP's Question?

Also I do not take the term "Master Gunsmith" Lightly, this to me is a term one bestows on himself. Is there a recognized Certificate for Master Gunsmith? I have a BA from the University of Maryland in Criminal Justice. Is there a school in Md. that has a Major in Gunsmithing?
The OP has a legitimate question, there will be opinions on both sides of that subject, we can only speak from past experience, some good, some bad.
Lastly I know there are some damm good gunsmiths on this Board, I am not nor ever professed to be. I like most are armatures.
These personal attacks serve nothing to the OP's Question, I stay on the no WC Forum to avoid this, but cant seem to get away from it.

Seems to be if you can't justify your opinion, attack the dissenting Poster?

Facts would have it that there have been experience with Good, Bad and outright Gougers when it comes to Dealerships.

One Master Gunsmith claims a massive salary and in the same breath tries to justify an overnight 400% increase in transfer cost 1+1=3?

Please lets get back to the OP's Question "Was he the subject of gouging?"

Eddie O

Ah, so one dealer pissed you of now they are all dirty tricksters.

You attacked Dealers by saying they would be flipping burgers for their business practices.

You attacked my title and I responded back. I wont be flipping burgers. I have 5 kids, a Wife and Grandmother to support. I bust my ass to provide for my family and you are attempting to tarnish how I earn a living, then you try to back of of your shit talk when your called on it. You talk about gun businesses like some of the Cop Bashers do about Police Officers.


Yes there are schools that teach Gunsmithing some graduate and cant mount a Scope. Same goes for some people with Bachelors Degrees that cant spell or interview well enough for someone to hire them let alone run a Small Business.

I even started a thread here a week ago about other GUNSHOPS calling themselves Gunsmiths that end up hacking up customers guns. Oddly no one pipes up about that kind of stuff, they just tuck their tails between their legs and hide. Completely silent and wont even name a business when they destroy someones property.

Oh, but please dont dare charge a fee someone finds "excessive" because all of the Free Shit Army protesters who thinks a business should price thing how they see based on their "intimate knowledge" of the Gun Business.

Destroy a customers gun = crickets

Dealer Charges more when Demand outstrips Time/Profit/Space and everyone will come out of the woodwork with pitchforks.



As far as my Gunsmithing abilities, Ill list a few for you:

Drilling and Tapping
Scope Mounting
Lathe Work/Barrel Contouring
Screw Head Repair
Milling/Sight Work
Polishing
Stippling/Checkering
Barrel Installations
Forging
Backboring
Honing
Chambering/Reaming
Slide Fitting/Install
Fitting Safeties
Troubleshooting
Clearing Seized Loaded Weapons
Intimate Assembly/Disssasembly Experience/No need for a Manual
General Repair
Dehorn Work
Refinishing
Removing Seized Parts and Scews
Fire/Water and Rust Restoration
Enhancements for Disabled Veterans
Choke Tube Installation
Chop Jobs
Pillar Installation
Soldering (Soft Solder/High Temp)
Welding
Crowning
Trigger Jobs
Stock Work
Recoil Pad Fitting/Installation
Porting
Timing Revolvers
Threading
Ramp Work
Action Work
Heat Treating
Chamfering
Bedding
Barrel Floating
Engraving
Bead Installation

 

[jpk1md]

Also I do not take the term "Master Gunsmith" Lightly, this to me is a term one bestows on himself. Is there a recognized Certificate for Master Gunsmith?

No offense Ed but on this point you're barking up the wrong tree and continueing down that path is only going to result in a hurt feelings report.

I've seen Chad's work and will vouch for the "Master Gunsmith" title......I think you'll find dozens of others that will do the same.

For the life of me I cannot understand why people are so willing to bitch about the price that an individual charges to perform a service when they can just go down the road and use some other service provided.

Shops will charge what they feel its worth to them to deal with the hassle.

You don't like it then don't do business with them.

 

[clandestine]

No offense Ed but on this point you're barking up the wrong tree and continueing down that path is only going to result in a hurt feelings report.

I've seen Chad's work and will vouch for the "Master Gunsmith" title......I think you'll find dozens of others that will do the same.

Thanks jpk1md.