What FMJ for carry?

[AliasNeo07]

Guys/gals.

I have a Ruger LCP that i'll be using for out of state/vacation carry. I've been planning on using Gold Dots, but the more I research the more prone I am to carry FMJs, ESPECIALLY in colder climates (more heavy clothing, etc.)

Question is, which FMJ in .380? Which is most reliable? Do they make a nickel-plated brass cased FMJ? Would say a Speer Lawman be a better choice than Winchester White Box?

WWB just seems like cheap crappy range ammo to me, not something I'm used to loading in a self defense piece.

So, which FMJ should I be carrying?

And no one say "EFMJ", lol.

Thanks.

 

[docB]

i may be mistaken but a fmj isnt really going to expand to much..where as with a hollow point it will expand more so than a fmj...sure the bad guy might be wearing a layers/ heavy jacket...but what if hes not? id rather have the possibility for some expansion than not much at all with the fmj's...

 

[zombiehunter]

i may be mistaken but a fmj isnt really going to expand to much..where as with a hollow point it will expand more so than a fmj...sure the bad guy might be wearing a layers/ heavy jacket...but what if hes not? id rather have the possibility for some expansion than not much at all with the fmj's...

Somewhere floating around here is a detailed write up of .380 balistics with both FMJ and HPs. IIRC the HPs failed to get adequate penetration because of the expansion, they're a low powered round compared to most of what else is out there and as such they dump a lot of their energy expanding leaving little for penetration. Add cold weather, homies with parkas and a diet of KFC and "t'is merely a flesh wound". Granted with FMJs placement is that much more important, but really even in a perfect world it's not like a .380 is going to open that much anyway. Also IIRC the FMJs achieved bare minimum penetration.

I've heard many state the .380 is the smallest practical defensive caliber and I'm sure there's no shortage of people made dead by it. But the LCP/.380 are niche guns meant for times when the adage "the gun you have is better than the gun you don't" is the only thing you've got left. It's an inexpensive firearm of reputable make and manufacture and will serve people well, but if you can afford and get away with carrying something bigger, with a larger magazine full of larger bullets I would go with a G26 or G27. Then again the size difference is SmartCar to Mini Cooper, Minis sure are small until you see them next to a Smart, same with the baby glocks and the LCP

 

[3rdRcn]

While I don't really think the .380 is sufficient for a self defense situation I do see where it could have a viable use for this purpose if used as a pocket gun. Keeping in mind that the pocket gun will be used at very short distances, damn near arms length and due to the lack of significant or even terminal penetration of the round one would need to be aiming or shooting at soft tissue like the stomach. I don't think it would incapacitate the intruder unless vital organs were hit that produced extreme internal damage and bleeding.

With the thoughts of causing as much internal damage as possible being the goal at very short ranges, my thoughts would lean towards staying with a hollow point versus a full metal jacket. While a JHP may have the same hole drilling effect that a FMJ would have should it not expand, the chances of it expanding even through heavy clothing are much better than that of a FMJ causing severe enough damage to stop or repel the attack quickly. That being said, it looks like the Federal FMJ is about the best in the major manufacturer group, they offer a 95gr with 203 ft lbs muzzle energy. I would still reconsider as the chances are 50/50 of running into someone wearing heavy cloths but the chances of a FMJ expanding and causing enough injury to stop an attack fairly quickly are much less imo.

3.80 Ballistics:
http://www.ballistics101.com/380_acp.php

 

[vette97]

I use CCI Blazer. The aluminum cases make my first magazine lighter to it's very light carry. In my 2nd magazine that I keep in that little pocket that no one uses on jeans, I alternate ball and HP, just in case the first mag didn't work for me. The very short barrel is going to leave you with much less muzzle velocity and HP might not even expand.

Regarding the .380, I once saw on Crime 360, on TV, a murder where a very large man was shot in the chest once with FMJ. The .380 passed in between the front ribs, through several vital organs and lodged in a rear rib. According to witnesses, the shot occurred over 10' and the man fell quickly, then laid there, not getting up. Police were on the scene very quickly and he was a goner. So, they are effective if used properly.

I would practice 2 torso and 1 head shot with your LCP. If you have the laser, like mine, it's pretty easy to practice. Dry fire drills, so you get used to that long pull while keeping the laser in one spot, is very helpful.

 

[alucard0822]

While I don't really think the .380 is sufficient for a self defense situation I do see where it could have a viable use for this purpose if used as a pocket gun. Keeping in mind that the pocket gun will be used at very short distances, damn near arms length and due to the lack of significant or even terminal penetration of the round one would need to be aiming or shooting at soft tissue like the stomach. I don't think it would incapacitate the intruder unless vital organs were hit that produced extreme internal damage and bleeding.

With the thoughts of causing as much internal damage as possible being the goal at very short ranges, my thoughts would lean towards staying with a hollow point versus a full metal jacket. While a JHP may have the same hole drilling effect that a FMJ would have should it not expand, the chances of it expanding even through heavy clothing are much better than that of a FMJ causing severe enough damage to stop or repel the attack quickly. That being said, it looks like the Federal FMJ is about the best in the major manufacturer group, they offer a 95gr with 203 ft lbs muzzle energy. I would still reconsider as the chances are 50/50 of running into someone wearing heavy cloths but the chances of a FMJ expanding and causing enough injury to stop an attack fairly quickly are much less imo.

3.80 Ballistics:
http://www.ballistics101.com/380_acp.php

interesting, and very valid points, I trust your opinion more than mine for most things due to your extensive experience, but am trying to wrap my head around this one given what I can find about the performance of HP vs FMJ in the LCP specifically.

I tried out a lot of expanding ammo in my LCP and before that in my Bersa, there was a big difference in velocity between the two in some loads, and not much in others, usually the LCP clocks around 100-200FPS slower than advertised because of the short barrel. Judging by most of the independent tests I can find, most HP 380 penetrates about 8-10" from a 3.25-3.5" gun, and 6-8" on the off chance it expands in the shorter 2.5-2.75" pocket guns.
Shooting HP into water bottles out of the LCP, I would say only about half expand at all, and of those that do, only about 25% expand uniformly, most either open up to wadcutter, or in Rangers and Gold dots, only a couple petals open, the Bersa was a different story, they expanded most of the time, and about 75% of all shots fired expanded uniformly, although penetration was still poor, and the expanded diameter wasn't all that much, usually about .45" compared to 9mm expanding about .6".

I don't think water can really relate to penetration in tissue, but it can compare penetration between rounds. Usually expanding 380 will stop in the first or second jug, FMJ makes it into the 3rd or 4th, same as good 9mm expanding ammo, 45, 357mag and 40 normally make it into the 4th or 5th, and some 230+p will punch through all 5 expanding the whole way, one notable exception was 90gr Buffalo bore 380+p I tried, and carried in the Bersa, it would expand about every time, and would penetrate into the 3rd water jug every time, about the same as standard velocity 9mm, however it is hot stuff, and I don't think the LCP could handle much of it. This seems to approximate the gel tests data for these rounds that I can find. I just am not comfortable with the performance of HP out of short barrels, most of the time they dont expand, and turn into FMJ anyway, when they do, they don't penetrate sufficiently, so I carry FMJ flat point WWB in my LCP(cuts a cleaner hole than RN), although if I was carrying a PPK, Bersa, or larger 380, I would do what I could to carry the buffalo bore +p ammo, it had a real improvement in performance over standard velocity 380, and a strong gun with 3"+ barrel can make the most of the borderline caliber, although for their size, you might as well carry a mini 9mm. In my case, the LCP is a backup, basically to fight my way to cover, or to get my primary reloaded or running again, so FMJ works just fine for me, lower cost, adequate penetration and more consistent performance are enough to tip my favor in a short barreled 380.

Looked a little further, and it looks like Kel-tec"s "official" position is that the similar P3AT can safely fire 380+p, but only occasional use is reccomended, Ruger says no +p in the manual, but it might be OK, might not, I don't want to risk it.

 

[AliasNeo07]

To whomever mentioned it, this will not be my primary carry gun. That will be a G19 with 124 +p Gold Dots. This is a pocket gun either for backup or when I can't carry the G19. Yes I know that FMJs don't expand. That is the point.

so I carry FMJ flat point WWB in my LCP(cuts a cleaner hole than RN),

Thanks, that is what I was after. I have WWB, I just didn't know if there was a better option, like a Speer Lawman or something. B/c I thought that the round nose would feed better than a flat point would.

Thanks!

 

[alucard0822]

To whomever mentioned it, this will not be my primary carry gun. That will be a G19 with 124 +p Gold Dots. This is a pocket gun either for backup or when I can't carry the G19. Yes I know that FMJs don't expand. That is the point.



Thanks, that is what I was after. I have WWB, I just didn't know if there was a better option, like a Speer Lawman or something.

Thanks!

Outside of relatively minor differences in weight, bullet profile and velocity, there isn't a whole lot of difference in FMJ ammo. The flat points cut cleaner holes in cardboard and paper, good for target shooting, but I'm not sure if it would do any more damage in a person. With most any 380 FMJ, you get a little deep hole into a threat, and not much else, HP could give you a little larger diameter wound, with a little more tearing and bleeding if it expands, but the likelyhood that penetration will be poor, and most any shot that is not an unobstructed shot directly to the COM has little if any chance of reaching the vitals, even a good COM shot may not reach them if the assailant is big, or a bone is struck, add clothing and the chances get worse, FMJ may not help much, but it gives the best chance to reach the vitals in my non-expert opinion.

 

[AliasNeo07]

Outside of relatively minor differences in weight, bullet profile and velocity, there isn't a whole lot of difference in FMJ ammo. The flat points cut cleaner holes in cardboard and paper, good for target shooting, but I'm not sure if it would do any more damage in a person. With most any 380 FMJ, you get a little deep hole into a threat, and not much else, HP could give you a little larger diameter wound, with a little more tearing and bleeding if it expands, but the likelyhood that penetration will be poor, and most any shot that is not an unobstructed shot directly to the COM has little if any chance of reaching the vitals, even a good COM shot may not reach them if the assailant is big, or a bone is struck, add clothing and the chances get worse, FMJ may not help much, but it gives the best chance to reach the vitals in my non-expert opinion.

Yeah. I'm not really terribly concerned with FMJ bullet profile, more concerned with reliable primers and stuff. I was hoping someone would tell me Speer made a .380 FMJ with a nickel-brass case but oh well. I guess I'll stick with WWB. Thanks everyone for your replies.

 

[3rdRcn]

interesting, and very valid points, I trust your opinion more than mine for most things due to your extensive experience, but am trying to wrap my head around this one given what I can find about the performance of HP vs FMJ in the LCP specifically.

I would digress to your experience and testing of the LCP for sure! My post was more a generalization of the caliber as opposed to a specific gun. I don't own a .380 so all I can go by is what I have read and I have read very little if anything in regards to the LCP specifically. Your post made a lot of sense when considering such a short barrel.

The only thing I would argue is a center mass shot with the .380 as hitting the breast plate would be highly likely and I have read many recorded shootings that hit the breast plate and had zero to very little penetration. I seem to remember one article that the guy was shot 4 times COM and beat the shooter half to death afterward, then walked to the hospital where the bullets were removed and he was released as they were nothing more than flesh wounds. That one article seems to have stuck in my head and thus the reason I would shoot for the belly and soft tissue, thus trying to produce as much internal trauma and bleeding as possible. Then I could try and run from them until they bleed out.