Vickers vs limited vickers

[LCPIWB]

So, I just got into IDPA and shot my first match at AAFG in January. I actually did not do too bad in terms of points down, and I do not think too bad on the time either just by following the SOs and explaination of the course.
Now that I want to continue I am reading through the rulebook and would like to clarify some rules and get some advise from experienced IDPA shooters.

I am shooting ESP due to using my xDM so 10rds.

My understanding of limited vickers is the round count is limited, and misses are misses(-5), but there is no FTN(Failure to Neutalize). However vickers is "unlimited" in that only the best shots count. That being said I am thinking to maximize my score the best time to fire extra would be.
"Unlimited" = 10rds +1 in the pipe, + 2 spare mags with 10rds each.

Vickers only
If head shot is required and I can clearly see I missed(included below the neck as it is counted as a miss), then I should shoot until see a hole in the head.
Because missing a head shot would count as a miss (-5), and get a FTN (+5 seconds) for a total of (-5 *.5 + 5) =7.5seconds added. Correct if wrong. So extra 3 seconds to get a hit would save at least 4 seconds on score.

Vickers only
If a body shot is required. Not getting it within the -1 region will result in a FTN. So if I can see from my position I am not within -1 or not even on the body to avoid a miss (-5) and a FTN(+5 seconds) I should throw some more lead down field. If I have one on -3 region that would still count as a FTN. Then I think it would make sense to shot again as my time penalty would (-3 * .5 + 5 ) = 6.5 seconds

However in a vickers situation what would happen in the following.
1-1-2-1.
Say I missed the single shot I had to put on the T-1 and I wanted to get anouther shot on the target to avoid a miss and a FTN.
If I immediately shot again would I get a proceedural? Thus to take my additional shot I would need to sh0ot the other three targets(T-2, T-3, T-4) first and come back to T-1?

Limited vickers.
Head shots missed are (-5 *.5)= 2.5 seconds to time, so taking anymore than 2 seconds to get a sight picture is wasting time and adding to the score. No?


And avoid hitting non-threats as they are straight up 5 seconds to the total score.

Please someone correct me if my logic or calculations are wrong.

Thank you.

 

[NateG]

I'm an IDPA newbie, too... but I think your numbers are correct.

However, I would suggest (from my experience in helping new shooters in High Power, where I've had some success) that you focus on getting hits first, then speed/strategy. It's much, much easier (at least in rifle) to take a shooter who's getting solid 10s in the rapid fire stages, but not getting all his shots off in time, to speed up a bit so he keeps getting solid shots but now finishes within the time frame than it is to take a shooter who gets all his shots away in time but all over the target and get him to put them in the middle.

What I'm saying is, if it takes you longer to get a solid hit than the penalty for a marginal hit (or a miss), take the time and make the good shot. You can speed up/strategize later. And it seems to this newbie that's what goes on--the best shooters still drop points on occasion--going slower to ensure that they don't drop any would cost more time than they'd make up in fewer penalties. But hits first. Then speed.

**like I said, I'm a rifle guy who is very new to IDPA, but it certainly doesn't strike me as a good idea to rush first and worry about hits later. (Compared to hits now, speed later)

 

[jimbobborg]

Take your time, they have different classes and divisions for a reason. Get your hits, the speed will follow. I'm working on the hits, will get the speed now that I'm hitting 90% on the first try.

 

[LCPIWB]

NateG and jimbobbog that you for the advice.
What would you consider good Points down versus round/stage/target count?

What I am trying to say is on 9 stages I had 57 Points down...and 7 of 9 stages was less that 5 points down each. One stage had 24 point down and one 12 points down, with two non-threats and a procecedure. It seems the non-threats on two of the stages everyone got dinged on. Hitting a non-threat as well as getting points down for not hitting target adds up quickly. So will definately be more cautious around those non-threats. Looking at the results, I feel I am running with the pack, I am personally satisfied, and enjoying myself which counts the most.

I am looking to not give away points for reasons of not understanding the proceedural errors and course of fire.

 

[davsco]

you (or at least I) really can't shoot fast enough to make up for misses, no shoots and procedurals, so need to slow down to avoid those.

just missing the center circle of the target costs you half a second, and only catching the edge of the target costs you 1.5 seconds (points down divided by 2).

 

[NateG]

NateG and jimbobbog that you for the advice.
What would you consider good Points down versus round/stage/target count?

Not a clue... this is where I shut up about things I know little-to-nothing about. I think I'm probably at about the same stage of IDPA shooting as you are (only a couple matches under my belt), but my goal (point wise) is to be about where the top shooters are in terms of points down, but I expect to do it much, much slower. Now, it's time for me to go find a rifle thread where I can feel comfortable again.

 

[mwelliott]

Here is a relatively interesting thread on enos about speed vs accuracy. Read it and draw your own conclusions but for me I will generally have more points down than others but the raw time will be lower. I shot that match with you and had 38 points down and that tells me personally wasn't shooting fast enough and my finish showed it.

As you already mentioned the big deal is hitting non-threats and having procedurals. Just from those 3 you received a 13 second bonus. In especially tight matches one non-threat is enough to knock you out of the running.

Hopefully some more experienced shooters will chime in but Aristotle on Enos sums it up pretty well.. "Don't slow down, learn to aim faster"

Mike

 

[JackBlundell]

It took me a half-dozen matches to learn the rules of the game well enough to apply them in a match.

Just shoot safe and have fun. After a few matches it will start to make sense and you'll stop getting the penalties.

 

[Bikebreath]

I'm up to around 13-15 matches and I'm the worst. I keep saying at the beginning of each match I'll slow down this time...but when that buzzer goes off it's like it destroys my brain. I'm still having a great time, though. If you were shooting with mwelliott last month, I was there in your squad, too. I'm the guy that made your score look better...

Lately I've been doing the dry firing with snap-caps and I think there's a difference, but I'll see very, very soon if I'm still the worst one.

Doug

 

[Archangel]

Slow down and get your hits. There is no such thing as "missing fast enough."

If you're getting 100% of your hits in the A / -0 zone, then that might be an indication that you can push to go faster. In USPSA the sweet spot seems to be getting about 90% of your hits in the A. I would imagine IDPA is about the same. If you find yourself getting much lower than that percentage, slow back down and concentrate on getting the hits.

Slow down to avoid getting penalties. The extra time needed to make sure you don't shoot a no-shoot (and therefor miss the shoot target you were supposed to hit) is well worth it vs the points penalty.

Learn to "see what you need to see" to make the shot, and don't shoot faster than that.

 

[Bikebreath]

Nice meeting you yesterday. Looks like you did ok from my view point. We'll know when the scores come out. - Doug

 

[LCPIWB]

Well, compared to everyone else I was not in last place. (But apples and oranges)
I was happy that I did not hit any non-threats and only missed putting one round on paper, actually make that two. On one target, bullet was on the paper, but it was on the weird, not even -3 part on the shoulder so that is still -5.
I also got 3 hits on the turning fast dropping target that many seem to have trouble landing bullets on. I think a 3-4" group on the shoulder if I remember correctly.
I know one part that I could have do better on was: I was behind cover and got my mind in a mental freeze, do two hand, no do strong hand, no do two hand, no do strong hand, and eventually I did two hand. In my mind I probably wasted 10 seconds, but maybe it was maybe only 5 seconds. A few more matches concentrating on making the hits laid on paper and maybe can think about speeding things up.

Bike breath seems like you had some trouble hitting that popper to make the turning target drop. I too think I wasted a few two many bullets on the poppers which do nothing but eat up time missing them. And the time needed to reload.

 

[Bikebreath]

Scores came out and even though I thought I did better I was dead last. My trigger control is only part of my problem. I still had a great time...just frustrating. Congrats to you, LCPIWB.

 

[mwelliott]

I am not sure if you know but the course of fire is posted after the match on this page.

I find it helpful to look at my score and the course of fire to try and figure out what may have caused my sub-par performance.

Mike

 

[Bikebreath]

I am not sure if you know but the course of fire is posted after the match on this page.

I find it helpful to look at my score and the course of fire to try and figure out what may have caused my sub-par performance.

Mike

No, I didn't know, thanks.

 

[hvymax]

Just like many martial arts. Mastery and precision in slowness. Once you do that then pick up the pace.

 

[LCPIWB]

I am not sure if you know but the course of fire is posted after the match on this page.

I find it helpful to look at my score and the course of fire to try and figure out what may have caused my sub-par performance.

Mike

I did the same previously. I will check this time around also. (Was not there last time I looked, but will check now.)
It is slightly more difficult to discern problem areas this time because for each bay the two limited vickers stages, the points down was scored together. (at least for our group). So little difficult to determine after the fact exactly which individual stage is the one that we did poorly on. But I was taking mental notes during the scoring, so I think I have a generally idea where I was getting sloppy.

 

[MessedUpMike]

I came in behind you Doug, but that's what I get for rushing. It may be the worst match I've shot yet from a score perspective. My sloppy came from trying to shoot WAY to fast. I'll also shoot the drop turners differently next time. The thing I love about tis game is no matter how bad, how hideously horribly awfully bad, I may have performed I always come away having learned something.

 

[LCPIWB]

I came in behind you Doug, but that's what I get for rushing. It may be the worst match I've shot yet from a score perspective. My sloppy came from trying to shoot WAY to fast. I'll also shoot the drop turners differently next time. The thing I love about tis game is no matter how bad, how hideously horribly awfully bad, I may have performed I always come away having learned something.

Sometimes making mistakes is the best way to learn. If you do well for the wrong reasons, it just enforces bad habits.
I do enjoy the aspect of imagining a new/different potential real life situation.

 

[rundownfid]

Here are a few things to consider for IDPA. Limited Vickers means you may not fire any more than the prescribed number of rounds. So if faced with a 3 target scenario and told to shoot each twice with best two to count. You would fire 6 rounds, two at each of the three targets. On the 7th shot you would incur a procedural penalty (also your best hit on the target you hit three times would not count. Never try to make up a missed shot on a limited vickers course of fire.

Vickers is the default way of scoring IDPA. One may fire as many rounds as required, however it is often counter productive to try to get a perfect score. Let me illustrate. You have the same 3 targets but scoring is Vickers. You draw and shoot two targets with 2 well center hits on each. However, on the third target you see that you are down one with a low hit. You shoot again and get a good down zero for a zero down stage. However the difference between the time you had 1 down and where you are after 7 shots had better be < .5 seconds. Unless you are very close you will not be able to see the miss and react fast enough to make up that shot in less than the .5 second penalty. On the other hand if you hit wood (target jerks and pieces fly) that probably meant you are down 3 and you probably can make up that shot in less than the 1.5 second penalty for a down 3 . If you are shooting a scenario where head shots are required and you are too far away to see your hits, you may want to shoot again if your sight picture is not good when the shot breaks, because a down 5 is 2.5 seconds and you can almost certainly get a hit in less time than that. Finally, if you think you have a target with no good hits definitely shoot it again because a failure to neutralize along with the points down is a match killer.

As you get into this more you will get a pretty good idea where your bullets are going as you shoot them; this is a key skill, as calling your shots accurately gives you the info you need to make snap decisions on what to make up and what to let go.