Transporting a loaded magazine
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Wapiti962- welcome. Respectfully I think you are mistaken. As stated before I usually carry my pistols in holsters inside my range bag and loaded magazines in the same bag but not inside the pistols. I feel very comfortable that I am complying with Maryland law.
LastDon-As far as PC goes it is such a nebulous concept. The courts love to talk about totality of the circumstances. I think that in looking at the totality of the circumstances in my situation (pistols in holsters, boxes of ammo, eye and ear protection and gun club membership card all in a range bag) there would not be sufficient PC for an officer to conduct a search. PC only supports a warrantless search of an automobile if the officer has a reasonable articulable suspicion that there is contraband or evidence of a crime in the car. It would be much different if an officer saw a loaded magazine under seat of a car driven late at night in a high crime area or something like that. That being said if a LEO wants to toss your car by the side of the road there’s not much you can do about it right there. Later is a different story…
LastDon-As far as PC goes it is such a nebulous concept. The courts love to talk about totality of the circumstances. I think that in looking at the totality of the circumstances in my situation (pistols in holsters, boxes of ammo, eye and ear protection and gun club membership card all in a range bag) there would not be sufficient PC for an officer to conduct a search. PC only supports a warrantless search of an automobile if the officer has a reasonable articulable suspicion that there is contraband or evidence of a crime in the car. It would be much different if an officer saw a loaded magazine under seat of a car driven late at night in a high crime area or something like that. That being said if a LEO wants to toss your car by the side of the road there’s not much you can do about it right there. Later is a different story…
MauiWowie
I have the SIGness...
Some law enforcement officers on this forum have wieghed in before. Some of the older more experienced (and higher rank) seem to favor the mag can be loaded if not in the handgun interpretation, and some have thought it was not allowed to be loaded at all or weren't sure IIRC.
Of the lawyers that have weighed in on this issue on this board, at least one has a loaded mag in his range bag next to his holstered handgun.
I think the other lawyers seem to agree, but I can't remember what they said because it was a while ago.
What he may be thinking of is the section in the code pertaining to hunting that outlaws the transporting of loaded guns. There is nothing in the firearm section outlawing the practice. We've had this conversation here before and many police believe that it is illegal to transport as such. I keep my mags loaded but separate from the firearm but just be prepared for a hassle if you are stopped and found to be transporting like that.
See the above, one works as a DA I believe and the other is a private attorney as I recall.
rrrrrrkevin
Its comin right for me!
I carry my mags with rounds in them and there is no law that makes that illegal,people just go WAY to far to be overly more compliant than compliant and its infectious and before you know it we will be putting yellow tape on top of empty magazines and having another vehicle follow behind you with the firearms beeing transported seperately just to go to the range
a magazine doesnt have a serial number on it so as far as im concerned its not a firearm and carrying a loaded magazine is not the same as carrying a loaded firearm, not to mention you cant shoot anything out the magazine without a gun,I got into this arguement in my hunting safetly class and everyone jumped on me when I said outside of hunting i always pre load my magazines because I use high caps and I dont wanna load 6 or 7 30rnd magazines before I shoot. That turned every single head in the class and it makes me so mad that people are so quick to throw away theyre rights and bend over to any police officer or any joe that wants to make up theyre own rules
I think alot of these made up "laws" come from the hunting safety program because they read this stuff out of some propaganda pamphlet that is full of crap and they get hunters ethics confused with state and federal laws
a magazine doesnt have a serial number on it so as far as im concerned its not a firearm and carrying a loaded magazine is not the same as carrying a loaded firearm, not to mention you cant shoot anything out the magazine without a gun,I got into this arguement in my hunting safetly class and everyone jumped on me when I said outside of hunting i always pre load my magazines because I use high caps and I dont wanna load 6 or 7 30rnd magazines before I shoot. That turned every single head in the class and it makes me so mad that people are so quick to throw away theyre rights and bend over to any police officer or any joe that wants to make up theyre own rules
I think alot of these made up "laws" come from the hunting safety program because they read this stuff out of some propaganda pamphlet that is full of crap and they get hunters ethics confused with state and federal laws
rrrrrrkevin
Its comin right for me!
btw I have no problem giving a police officer a reason to search my vehicle on the way to the range for 2 reasons,first I love showing off my collection of firearms and secondly because I dont blame the officer for looking out for his own personal safety but once he starts makes up his own laws thats just sad
fivepointstar
Thank you MD-Goodbye
I guess its going to be me to chime up!! Perhaps LEO on this forum are tired of getting crucified in public hense a lack of response. BUT, its its going to prevent people I call friends on this forum getting jacked or arrested...I'll chime up.
Maui....its really not a ruling because the courts get the final say whats a good search or not...Sometime you may have a great attorney with a great argument but His/Her Honor won't bite...I'm Sure CharlieFoxtrot knows exactly what I mean.
I can agree with CF scenario that he pointed out. The way I see CF's scenario there are 2 different factors 1) was there PC for the search and 2) was there PC for an arrest.
In the scenario....CF says that the unloaded handgun and the loaded magazine are in his bag. Why did the officer go into his bag???? At this point there is no suspicion and no PC at all to think that there is a loaded gun in the car. Issue a warning/citation and send CF on his way.
OK....lets change the scenario!!!! The loaded magazine is outside the range bag and the officer see's the magazine but NOT a gun.
Issue 1 The Search: I feel the court would support the officer's claim of PC in finding a loaded magazine,there there may be a loaded handgun in the car. I believe the court would support the officer's "good faith effort" to protect himself and protect the public. I can see the court will favor in the interest of Public Safety, a warrantless search of the vehicle and a Terry Frisk.
Issue 2 An arrest: CF scenario says that after the search, the officer located his shooting bag with an unloaded holstered HANDGUN, shooting goggles, ear protection, boxed rounds. Totality of the Circumstances....there is absolutely NO PC for an arrest. The officers responsibility from this point is to do a wanted check on the person and firearm and if there is no discrepencies release the driver without further delay. If the driver wishes to make a complaint give him the name of his supervisor or how to make a complaint with IAD.
Issue 2-B An Arrest: Lets change CF scenario and lets says that contraband was found in the car....Controlled Substances, Pirated Videos/Clothing, Child Porn, you name it....anything can happen on a traffic stop. I believe the court would rule in favor of a lawful warrantless search and PC for an arrest.
Its 0125 hrs so if i missed something or screw something up I'll check in the AM to clarify myself. Remember that the court will make the final decision on lawful search and lawful arrest.
Every situation is different and you can "what if" this to death. I'm looking at CF's scenario from a traffic stop on Rt 15 outside of Thurmont or Frederick. If this stop was somewhere else and the circumstances were different....thats a "what if" Welcome to police work, I get these DFQ's all the time....
rrrrrrrrrrkevin....any officer who makes laws should have his badge stripped from him. that person should be appropriately disciplined by his superiors.
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LastDon
Active Member
Sorry, I guess I should have given my background. As 3rdRcn pointed out, I'm a prosecutor in Baltimore City.
FivePointStar's interpretation is EXACTLY how it would go down. You'd get your car tossed, and provided you have nothing else illegal in the vehicle, you shouldn't get arrested. The case law clearly supports that an officer observing a loaded magazine in a vehicle is PC to search the vehicle.
As to novus' prior point that it's not PC to search the ENTIRE vehicle, that's up to the judge's interpretation of the 4th Amendment and Terry/Hicks. I can tell you that most city judges would agree with novus, however, I know of county judges that would find a loaded magazine to be grounds to turn the car upside down and shake it until everything comes out.
FivePointStar's interpretation is EXACTLY how it would go down. You'd get your car tossed, and provided you have nothing else illegal in the vehicle, you shouldn't get arrested. The case law clearly supports that an officer observing a loaded magazine in a vehicle is PC to search the vehicle.
As to novus' prior point that it's not PC to search the ENTIRE vehicle, that's up to the judge's interpretation of the 4th Amendment and Terry/Hicks. I can tell you that most city judges would agree with novus, however, I know of county judges that would find a loaded magazine to be grounds to turn the car upside down and shake it until everything comes out.
kalister1
R.I.P.
What is taught in the Hunter Safety course is Safety. Some if not most hunters only shoot to hunt, sight in the deer rifle once a year for a couple days out in the woods. Maybe some bird hunting, duck or goose. The hunter safety program is for beginners. Make them unload every time they climb a fence or jump a ditch, every time you go up or down from a tree stand. Keep the bullets in a separate bag from the gun and always lock everything.
I'll bet some of us here shoot more a month then my hunting buddies do in a couple years. All they are worried about is one of the kids getting hurt.
I'll bet some of us here shoot more a month then my hunting buddies do in a couple years. All they are worried about is one of the kids getting hurt.
Notagunnut
Bullets, or Arrows.
That's how I've always understood it.
The magazine is considered a part of the firearm, and if the magazine has cartridges in it then the firearm is considered to be loaded.
i'd have to dig for the links - but one person actually went to the trouble of contacting the states attorney - they said that it was not illegal. He then contacted the MDSP who responded that while it was not exactly illegal, they considered it probably cause for arrest, search, seizure.
so while it may be up for interperitation, unless you are willing to fight it in court if you do get taken for a ride, then its not worth the risk.
so while it may be up for interperitation, unless you are willing to fight it in court if you do get taken for a ride, then its not worth the risk.
What about the limitation in 4-206?
I understand that an officer has the ability to do a Terry search for weapons for his protection and that is areas within reach in the vehicle for other possible weapons, but according to some judges how does an officer get to toss the entire car under any circumstances other than probable cause a crime is being committed outside of a handgun transport violation?
Andras
Active Member
There is no 'separate compartments' law because there are vehicles that do not have multiple compartments, such as a van or SUV. Also, when I transport, everything is in my trunk, and I will not be giving consent to any search of it, should I be pulled over.
Below is the response from the MdAG, contacted by another poster here.
In addition, I asked a DNR trooper at Myrtle Grove if the hunting regulation about loaded magazines applied to detachable magazines not in the weapon, and he said that it did not.
Below is the response from the MdAG, contacted by another poster here.
In addition, I asked a DNR trooper at Myrtle Grove if the hunting regulation about loaded magazines applied to detachable magazines not in the weapon, and he said that it did not.
Also if someone is transporting by foot, horseback, bicycle or motorcycle there are no compartments at all really.
This is a very interesting discussion. Fivepointstar great post for so early in the morning! You are a credit to your profession and have a better grasp of search and seizure law than most lawyers.
As an aside along the lines of your 2-B scenario I have a case now where during the daytime after a traffic stop for speeding the officer saw a white box that said 9mm Winchester (it was your standard Wally World 50 round box) on the back seat of the car occupied by the driver only. Opened it up and found that it was empty and used that as PC to search the whole car. Found no weapons but marijuana in the center console. We'll see what a judge says.
As an aside along the lines of your 2-B scenario I have a case now where during the daytime after a traffic stop for speeding the officer saw a white box that said 9mm Winchester (it was your standard Wally World 50 round box) on the back seat of the car occupied by the driver only. Opened it up and found that it was empty and used that as PC to search the whole car. Found no weapons but marijuana in the center console. We'll see what a judge says.
LastDon
Active Member
The issue is that a lot of judges, and the Court of Appeals itself, are much more willing to grant officers leeway when guns are involved.
I agree that there is likely not probable cause to into a locked trunk, but, as Andras pointed out, there is no separate compartment law, and some judges I've been before have interpreted the caselaw to indicate that a loaded magazine MAY be PC of a crime greater than a wear/carry or transport.
The problem with these laws, as with most, is that there is no bright line rule, and even if there were, judges will often do what they want, for better or for worse.
My advice, as a humble civil servant: take the time to unload your magazines.
I agree that there is likely not probable cause to into a locked trunk, but, as Andras pointed out, there is no separate compartment law, and some judges I've been before have interpreted the caselaw to indicate that a loaded magazine MAY be PC of a crime greater than a wear/carry or transport.
The problem with these laws, as with most, is that there is no bright line rule, and even if there were, judges will often do what they want, for better or for worse.
My advice, as a humble civil servant: take the time to unload your magazines.
