Stripped lowers legal?

[tapeman1]

This is crazy. I might need to do some shopping.



Knowing my luck though the MSP will change their minds and kick my freakin door down in the middle of the night to get them back.

 

[kraftyone]

This is crazy. I might need to do some shopping.



Knowing my luck though the MSP will change their minds and kick my freakin door down in the middle of the night to get them back.

Thats why I will hold off I love my 4 dogs to much.

 

[NateIU10]

Here's the issue:

I have been working with an IP to change this for the last 3 or 4 months. MSP has written multiple things (that I believe to be wrong) about lowers and their illegality. The dealers selling them seem to be operating on verbal affirmation (I do not know whom they have spoken with.)

Remember, knowing violations of the law are criminal. How hard is it for a prosecutor to ask, "have you purchased and AR lower before? Was it regulated/on a 77R as a regulated firearm? Was this form you signed marked 'X', indicating it as an Assault Weapon? You knew it was an ALG the second time."

If lowers are legal (which I believe them to be), there is no need for a 77R. They're not handguns, nor are they Assault Long Guns. They are not regulated firearms. I will wait for my arguments to be confirmed in writing before I buy another lower.

ETA: I have no idea their reasoning for needing an HQL or 77R on these. That sort of logic is why I am a bit skeptical of their entire conclusion to sell lowers this way.

 

[swinokur]

Very sage advice Nate.

 

[AssMan]

Thats why I will hold off I love my 4 dogs to much.

Ain't that the truth

 

[ScottR]

Thats why I will hold off I love my 4 dogs to much.

me too, they can shoot the cat though

 

[dfens42]

Getting caught up on this. Very interesting stuff guy.

 

[BIGCHRISS197]

I'm anxious to see what happens. I know I'll be in for some lowers if this plays out favorably

 

[AssMan]

Fingers crossed!

 

[ScottR]

I'm anxious to see what happens. I know I'll be in for some lowers if this plays out favorably

Yeah Me too, I don't mind HBAR's

 

[DaemonAssassin]

Hopefully this goes our way. I want a bunch more lowers...

 

[Lou45]

Here's the issue:

I have been working with an IP to change this for the last 3 or 4 months. MSP has written multiple things (that I believe to be wrong) about lowers and their illegality. The dealers selling them seem to be operating on verbal affirmation (I do not know whom they have spoken with.)

Remember, knowing violations of the law are criminal. How hard is it for a prosecutor to ask, "have you purchased and AR lower before? Was it regulated/on a 77R as a regulated firearm? Was this form you signed marked 'X', indicating it as an Assault Weapon? You knew it was an ALG the second time."

If lowers are legal (which I believe them to be), there is no need for a 77R. They're not handguns, nor are they Assault Long Guns. They are not regulated firearms. I will wait for my arguments to be confirmed in writing before I buy another lower.

ETA: I have no idea their reasoning for needing an HQL or 77R on these. That sort of logic is why I am a bit skeptical of their entire conclusion to sell lowers this way.

I've been holding off on posting the following in this thread since it started, well, until now. I've explored this exact matter and subsequently discussed it with my attorney last fall and his advice and explanation pretty much mirrored Nate's. Then I added to the equation by having a shoulder stock attached to the lower and my attorney remained with his initial position as a "no go". BTW, my attorney is VERY PRO 2A.

If a dealer wants to really "push the system" by selling AR15 lowers (not complete HBAR's) as non-regulated, I think that dealer had better be prepared for the possibility of a long absence from their firearms business if the state (MSP) becomes privy to this as the dealer's license could be suspended and possibly ultimately revoked (out of business for good) and not to mention the potential legal fees that the dealer could/will encounter, win, loose, or draw.

 

[fabsroman]

I've been holding off on posting the following in this thread since it started, well, until now. I've explored this exact matter and subsequently discussed it with my attorney last fall and his advice and explanation pretty much mirrored Nate's. Then I added to the equation by having a shoulder stock attached to the lower and my attorney remained with his initial position as a "no go". BTW, my attorney is VERY PRO 2A.

If a dealer wants to really "push the system" by selling AR15 lowers (not complete HBAR's) as non-regulated, I think that dealer had better be prepared for the possibility of a long absence from their firearms business if the state (MSP) becomes privy to this as the dealer's license could be suspended and possibly ultimately revoked (out of business for good) and not to mention the potential legal fees that the dealer could/will encounter, win, loose, or draw.

Yep, sometimes it is tough to pursue liberty and freedom. Sometimes, it results in getting hanged, shot with guns, shot with firehouses, chewed on by big dogs, beaten, etc. Ah, wrong liberty and freedom movement.

Thing is, those of us that have it good in this system (e.g., me) tend to not want to rock the boat too much because we could end up losing our livelihood and/or freedom (e.g., prison). Heck, as much as I want another lower or two from Cross Machine Tool, I am not willing to take the chance and buy one in Maryland. However, I am glad that somebody is pushing the envelope on this law and the corresponding regulations. Lou, I know you are pushing in other ways (e.g., Kolbe).

 

[moojersey]

So does anyone know when something official will come out about this ?

 

[fabsroman]

So does anyone know when something official will come out about this ?

Don't hold your breath for anything "official". My guess is that "official" would end including somebody getting arrested over this and the case going to the Court of Appeals for a reported opinion. I guess an FFL entering into a contract for the sale of a lower to a customer, then breaching the contract because it is "illegal", the customer suing the FFL for breach of contract, and the matter being decided by the courts based upon a declaratory judgment action might be an option too. Thing is, that is going to cost some serious coin in attorneys fees and take some decent planning.

Probably resolve Kolbe v. O'Malley as far as it will go before you resolve this matter in the courts.

Again, don't hold your breath for something "official". The "official" position right now by MSP is that it is illegal to sell, transfer, etc. the AR-15 lowers.

 

[OrbitalEllipses]

Nothing official will come before Frosh. Anything after Frosh will not be in our favor.

 

[moojersey]

I see thanks. Seems pretty ballsy that the FFL's are selling them then. Good for them.

 

[BIGCHRISS197]

Considering how reluctant many FFLs were to even do 8th day release, I'd assume theyd have to be pretty confident there won't be any repercussions in this matter

 

[fidelity]

I see thanks. Seems pretty ballsy that the FFL's are selling them then. Good for them.

Nothing's been released to the customer as yet. The lower, which is not on the MD handgun roster as far as I know, is being sold as if it was a handgun, requiring a MD handgun qualification license and approval (i.e. a "not disapproved" stamp) from the MD state police. I would bet that the FFL awaits the ND before releasing the lower, even if the police take longer than the proscribed 7 day period.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

Isn't it true that the time to get a ND can be forever? SO it is possible that these could be held up until a decision is made - months to years!