Still worth getting a trust?

[swinokur]

Good catch, I meant, "months-long wait."

It's an insane process on both the MSP and BATFE paper filing wait-times. 4-6 months + 9-12 months = 13-18 MONTHS for an individual that paper files. That is literally insane.

Since the Govt is run by insane people, it makes perfect sense to me because I'm NOT.

 

[aaronn]

Nate, what's your guess on Forms in the ATF pipeline during any potential changes? You think there's a possibility they will be rejected and forced to re-file?

 

[NateIU10]

Nate, what's your guess on Forms in the ATF pipeline during any potential changes? You think there's a possibility they will be rejected and forced to re-file?

Wild guess here, but I would say unlikey. Nothing is impossible, but I cannot imagine a set of circumstances where ATF will adopt regulations requiring the cancellation, refund, and resubmission of forms. Now, part of 41P does speak to a new ATF Form they want to create (5320.23) for new "responsible persons" added to the entity owning an NFA firearm.

 

[teratos]

Hasn't there been talk of eliminating the CLEO sign-off? If they eliminated trusts, and also eliminated the CLEO, that would make it a bit more palatable.

 

[rtruhn]

Sorry, Nate, to take advantage of your professional expertise (I feel kind of like the joke about the guy accosting a doctor at a party), but a couple of followup questions.

1- If ATF regs are like other agnecies', then a June final rule would take effect 60 days later (August)?

2- Having a trust, it seems crucial to update trustees in the very near term?

3- Having a trust, it seems beneficial to buy as many NFA toys and start the paperwork before June?

 

[TxAggie]

NFA items and NFA Trusts are covered under Federal laws, not state.

Federal law require CLEO signoff (MSP or sheriff) for non trust firearms. What may change is the BATFE policy.

Here's what I don't get (yes, it's a rhetorical question, just bear with me)

So NFA are covered under federal law. BUT they require CLEO sign off from a local official at the county or state level. Not all CLEO's sign off at the same scrutiny. Therefore, isn't the entire concept of CLEO sign off in violation of the XIV Amendment, equal protection?

 

[swinokur]

-Nate should weigh in. IANAL.

 

[NateIU10]

Hasn't there been talk of eliminating the CLEO sign-off? If they eliminated trusts, and also eliminated the CLEO, that would make it a bit more palatable.

41P would add requirements for CLEO to ALL NFA firearm applications, regardless of entity type or individual. It may also add the fingerprints, pictures, etc. for all "responsible persons" in the entity or trust (and future talk about creating a new form when any "responsible person" is added to an entity. For Corporations and LLC NFA ownership, this is an insane proposal. It is inconveniencing for Trusts, but not the end of the world.

41P does have some beneficial things in it (ie. clarifications on tax-free transfers at death.)

Sorry, Nate, to take advantage of your professional expertise (I feel kind of like the joke about the guy accosting a doctor at a party), but a couple of followup questions.

1- If ATF regs are like other agnecies', then a June final rule would take effect 60 days later (August)?

2- Having a trust, it seems crucial to update trustees in the very near term?

3- Having a trust, it seems beneficial to buy as many NFA toys and start the paperwork before June?

1 - There are a lot of ways this could go down from here.

If 
the 
rulemaking
 record
 contains 
persuasive 
new
 data 
or 
policy 
arguments, 
or 
poses 
difficult
 questions 
or 
criticisms, 
the 
ATF
 may
 decide 
to 
terminate
 the
 rulemaking (not betting on that).
 
Or,
 the 
ATF
 may
 decide 
to 
continue 
the 
rulemaking
 but 
change
 aspects 
of 
the 
rule 
to 
reflect 
these 
new
 issues. 

If 
the
 changes 
are 
major, 
the
 ATF 
may 
publish
 a 
supplemental 
proposed 
rule (this would extend our timeline. I am cautiously optimistic about this, with the vast number of legitimate comments submitted.) 

If 
the
 changes
 are 
minor, 
or 
a 
logical 
outgrowth
 of 
the 
issues
 and
 solutions 
discussed
 in 
the 
proposed
 rules, 
the 
ATF 
may 
proceed
 with 
a 
final 
rule.




When 
the ATF 
publishes 
a 
final
 rule, 
generally 
the 
rule
 is 
effective
 no 
less 
than 
thirty 
days
 after 
the 
date
 of 
publication 
in 
the 
Federal
 Register.

 If 
the 
ATF
 wants
 to 
make 
the 
rule 
effective 
sooner, 
it 
must 
cite 
“good 
cause”
 (persuasive 
reasons) 
as 
to 
why 
this 
is 
in 
the
 public
 interest.





Significant 
rules 
(defined
 by 
Executive
 Order 
12866)
 and 
major 
rules
 (defined 
by 
the 
Small
 Business 
Regulatory 
Enforcement
 Fairness
 Act) 
are 
required
 to 
have 
a 
60
 day 
delayed 
effective
 date.


2- Depends completely on the final rule. The ATF was also seeking comment on another possible rule to have forms for addition of "responsible persons." Depending on what this form entails, it may be just as easy to add trustees as responsible persons AFTER the rule takes effect as it would be for every responsible person at the time of filing to do the paperwork (it may even be easier, or it could be a form requesting all the information required for individual submissions.) Now, if you have all of your NFA items in trust prior to the rule's adoption, it may be beneficial to not have to add trustees in the future. Again, this is only if the rule does not require filing for current "responsible persons."

3- I have no idea what the final rule will look like, BUT I am getting my NFA things in order sooner rather than later. I will still use a trust in the future, but I like the ease of trust applications now. Still beneficial, but it may be a closer question.

 

[Fordfan]

UPDATE: I got the trust through Brittany Stouffer. She was great.

I have since purchased three suppressors and the Efile system shuts down before any are submitted.....ugh

 

[rtruhn]

Thanks, Nate, for the learned followup. Looks like I have some decisions to make...

 

[Bountied]

What type of property needs to be in the trust to get it started? Do I need an NFA item to make the trust, or can I simply put a firearm I own in the trust and add/remove items to it down the road?

 

[NateIU10]

What type of property needs to be in the trust to get it started? Do I need an NFA item to make the trust, or can I simply put a firearm I own in the trust and add/remove items to it down the road?

We do completely different trusts for NFA and non-NFA firearms, and do not recommend the co-mingling of the two. We recite an initial $10 to fund the trust. If you already have the NFA item before it goes into trust, that would be another tax-paid transfer.