sig 516, POF 416, HK 416 which is the better rifle?

[FFMike]

I think you misunderstand me. There are definitely some good piston guns. Some probably equal most Di guns. My only point is that they aren't any better and are not an improvement on the design but more marketing hype. The HK may be the exception but why would anyone pay that much for what you get. Plus like Clandestine said there are already reports of issues. IMHO the cleaning thing is way overblown. It is not hard to clean a Di AR and they rarely even need it.

Russ, I agree with you... While I can not comment on the cleaning thing as I don't personally have a DI yet to compare it too.... I was in the right place at the right time with someone that spoke with me for over an hour before closing one day and bought the piston over Di strictly because: I wanted one of each variation and the price was just way too hard to turn down!

 

[Lex Armarum]

Sig556 is one of the most accurate piston guns out there. A true AK/AR combo but Sig screwed it up by making the lower incompatible with other AR uppers. The Sig556 is somewhat unique in design but the fact that Sig did not expand the model line to rival that of the AR and AR parts market ruined the overall execution of the firearm. If Sig had invested more time in QC and developing a parts market/aftermarket, then I think the Sig could've replaced the AR.

I think the whole piston "myth" began with the AK. People saw the reliability of the AK piston system and thought that it would be a good combination with an AR - an accurate rifle that had the reliability of the AK (throw it in the mud, pick it up and fire it). However, that logic was blown up and hyped into myth and legend. If you think about the physics of the Piston vs. DI conversation, I tend to think that a piston AR has it over the DI system by the simple fact that one is not relying on the gas to directly move the BCG but rather the gas operates a piston that pushes the BCG. This creates a cleaner chamber that does not suffer from some of the defects that older AR models suffered from such as reliability and jamming issues when the action was cruddied (sp?) up.

All of that said, the piston AR is not worth the price charged IMO. The DI is not so inferior that one would suffer from purchasing a DI over a piston. Its all about opportunity cost and the piston is not worth the extra dough unless you're buying something like the Sig 556.

 

[Jimbob2.0]

How is this possible? I was under the impression quality uppers like BCM, DD, etc, were around 30k.

How are you defining barrel life (e.g., grouping at all or keyholing not grouping). Even the highest quality barrels I have seen start to get some spread after 10,000 on semi, they are still quite servicable for a while longer.

While some of us burn 5k a year in ammo, I woulding worry to much about it as each barrel probably wears a little differently and you will likely break other parts first. Finally, barrels can be replaced, on a direct impingentment AR VERY easily which in my mind is a huge advantage of the platform.

 

[clandestine]

Sig556 is one of the most accurate piston guns out there. A true AK/AR combo but Sig screwed it up by making the lower incompatible with other AR uppers. The Sig556 is somewhat unique in design but the fact that Sig did not expand the model line to rival that of the AR and AR parts market ruined the overall execution of the firearm. If Sig had invested more time in QC and developing a parts market/aftermarket, then I think the Sig could've replaced the AR.

I think the whole piston "myth" began with the AK. People saw the reliability of the AK piston system and thought that it would be a good combination with an AR - an accurate rifle that had the reliability of the AK (throw it in the mud, pick it up and fire it). However, that logic was blown up and hyped into myth and legend. If you think about the physics of the Piston vs. DI conversation, I tend to think that a piston AR has it over the DI system by the simple fact that one is not relying on the gas to directly move the BCG but rather the gas operates a piston that pushes the BCG. This creates a cleaner chamber that does not suffer from some of the defects that older AR models suffered from such as reliability and jamming issues when the action was cruddied (sp?) up.

All of that said, the piston AR is not worth the price charged IMO. The DI is not so inferior that one would suffer from purchasing a DI over a piston. Its all about opportunity cost and the piston is not worth the extra dough unless you're buying something like the Sig 556.

Again Old Myths. The reliability issues with the AR are from vitenam days. One issue was using the wrong powder, the other issue was lack of chrome lining for ease of extraction. The main problem to this day with the AR lies with the GI magazines. If the Army did its Rifle tests against all the wonder guns trying to take its place and simply used PMags instead of GI mags the results would be a statistical TIE. The XM7 (Which Melted), the SCAR, ect....... all had less issues simply because of the weakness in the AR GI Mag. Not because of a piston design, not because the Piston is cleaner.

Technically the D.I. AR is still a piston, but the piston is inside the bolt carrier, and just like extenal piston designs the AR Bolt Carrier Assmebly self linits itself and wont lockup when it carbons up. It will break off the excess carbon and blow it out the vent holes in the Carrier.

The Piston AR was done decades ago by colt and never went anywhere. The Daewoo is a Piston/AR Hybrid and is still in service. Difference there is the Daewoo uses no Receiver Extension/Buffer Tube. The Colt Piston gun didnt take off becaus ethere wasnt the internet spreading stupid falsehoods about the AR that simply dont exist anymore unless your reloading with the wrong powders and using cheap mags and components to build the uber cheap AR, and those guys get what they pay for.

The SIG516 is the AR Piston Gun whih is pretty much a copy of HK's Piston AR. The SIG556 is a Swiss 551/552 copy and does have compatibility with its 551/552 forefathers when swapping uppers and lowers.

 

[erwos]

Ah, damn you Chad, now you're reminding me that I want to pick up a Daewoo and a DP-51. How do those Daewoo rifles do as SBRs?

 

[Lex Armarum]

Again Old Myths. The reliability issues with the AR are from vitenam days. One issue was using the wrong powder, the other issue was lack of chrome lining for ease of extraction. The main problem to this day with the AR lies with the GI magazines. If the Army did its Rifle tests against all the wonder guns trying to take its place and simply used PMags instead of GI mags the results would be a statistical TIE. The XM7 (Which Melted), the SCAR, ect....... all had less issues simply because of the weakness in the AR GI Mag. Not because of a piston design, not because the Piston is cleaner.

Technically the D.I. AR is still a piston, but the piston is inside the bolt carrier, and just like extenal piston designs the AR Bolt Carrier Assmebly self linits itself and wont lockup when it carbons up. It will break off the excess carbon and blow it out the vent holes in the Carrier.

The Piston AR was done decades ago by colt and never went anywhere. The Daewoo is a Piston/AR Hybrid and is still in service. Difference there is the Daewoo uses no Receiver Extension/Buffer Tube. The Colt Piston gun didnt take off becaus ethere wasnt the internet spreading stupid falsehoods about the AR that simply dont exist anymore unless your reloading with the wrong powders and using cheap mags and components to build the uber cheap AR, and those guys get what they pay for.

The SIG516 is the AR Piston Gun whih is pretty much a copy of HK's Piston AR. The SIG556 is a Swiss 551/552 copy and does have compatibility with its 551/552 forefathers when swapping uppers and lowers.

I agree with you, so I hope you weren't disagreeing with me. I was trying to point to the problems experienced in the Vietnam days and failed to mention that modern AR are not prone to the same problems.

As for the Sig556, try finding Sig551/552 part to interchange them with and AFAIK, they're not 100% interchangeable either which is why some FFLs choose to sell the rifle as unregulated vs. regulated.

 

[sailskidrive]

The concern I would have with purchasing a piston AR is that there is not an industry standard pattern by which they are made. All of the manufacturers, i.e. POF, LMT, Adams Arms, etc, use their own unique and patented designs. While POF may be a very viable company now, in 15 years they may go the way of ATARI or the buggy whip. Finding a replacement piston or carrier key may not be that simple.

 

[clandestine]

I agree with you, so I hope you weren't disagreeing with me. I was trying to point to the problems experienced in the Vietnam days and failed to mention that modern AR are not prone to the same problems.

As for the Sig556, try finding Sig551/552 part to interchange them with and AFAIK, they're not 100% interchangeable either which is why some FFLs choose to sell the rifle as unregulated vs. regulated.

No ill intent my friend. I was just throwing out what people seem to forget.

I will say the 556 upper will go on a 551 and vise versa. Ive done a conversion before the classics came out and had 2 side by side. besides the barrels and mags the guns interchanged completely.

 

[clandestine]

The concern I would have with purchasing a piston AR is that there is not an industry standard pattern by which they are made. All of the manufacturers, i.e. POF, LMT, Adams Arms, etc, use their own unique and patented designs. While POF may be a very viable company now, in 15 years they may go the way of ATARI or the buggy whip. Finding a replacement piston or carrier key may not be that simple.

This is my largest beef besides issues people ignore about piston AR's (Carrier Tilt)

 

[04RWon]

Russ, I agree with you... While I can not comment on the cleaning thing as I don't personally have a DI yet to compare it too.... I was in the right place at the right time with someone that spoke with me for over an hour before closing one day and bought the piston over Di strictly because: I wanted one of each variation and the price was just way too hard to turn down!

You can compare it to one of mine, well be doing shooting soon

 

[JDove]

I agree with you, so I hope you weren't disagreeing with me. I was trying to point to the problems experienced in the Vietnam days and failed to mention that modern AR are not prone to the same problems.

As for the Sig556, try finding Sig551/552 part to interchange them with and AFAIK, they're not 100% interchangeable either which is why some FFLs choose to sell the rifle as unregulated vs. regulated.

Actually, as Chad mentioned the 551/552 and 556/551-A1's are interchangeable in the majority of their parts. And I think the real reason some FFL's treat them as unregulated vs regulated, is that on the list it specifically mentions, "(34) SIG 550/551 assault rifle (.223 caliber)." It does not mention the 556 specifically, therefore some FFL's take that literally.

 

[Lex Armarum]

Actually, as Chad mentioned the 551/552 and 556/551-A1's are interchangeable in the majority of their parts. And I think the real reason some FFL's treat them as unregulated vs regulated, is that on the list it specifically mentions, "(34) SIG 550/551 assault rifle (.223 caliber)." It does not mention the 556 specifically, therefore some FFL's take that literally.

There is no other way to take the law. Either read it literally or just make it up as you go along. I don't see any other choices.

 

[JDove]

There is no other way to take the law. Either read it literally or just make it up as you go along. I don't see any other choices.

I hear you. Just funny that its listed that way and you can actually interchange the parts. Crazy no?

 

[Lex Armarum]

I hear you. Just funny that its listed that way and you can actually interchange the parts. Crazy no?

I guess. Lawmakers make no pretense about knowing dick about guns when making the laws. I'm glad they choke on it in this fashion; it's only fitting.

What's even funnier is that even if you interchange parts, you're not make the gun any more lethal, effective, or more evil.

 

[JDove]

I guess. Lawmakers make no pretense about knowing dick about guns when making the laws. I'm glad they choke on it in this fashion; it's only fitting.

What's even funnier is that even if you interchange parts, you're not make the gun any more lethal, effective, or more evil.

Yeah same as the AR HBAR models. MD is just to silly for words when it comes to what's regulated and what's not.

 

[Yoshi]

Does anyone have personal experience with the PWS offering and if their version of the AK/AR combo works or doesn't work?

 

[FFMike]

You can compare it to one of mine, well be doing shooting soon

When ya going?? If I am available I might join ya....