Shotgun Primers - Old Federal 209s

[trickg]

I bought some shotshell reloading gear and amongst the things I received were some older Federal 209 primers - NOT the newer, hotter 209A. Based on the lot number on the box it seems these were made in 1978.

With that in mind, I'm not quite sure how to use them, although I think I can probably use them interchangeably with Winchester 209s for my trap loads.

Thoughts? I'd really like to use them if possible because I have several thousand of then.

 

[4g64loser]

I bought some shotshell reloading gear and amongst the things I received were some older Federal 209 primers - NOT the newer, hotter 209A. Based on the lot number on the box it sends these were made in 1978.

With that in mind, I'm not quite sure how to use them, although I think I can probably use them interchangeably with Winchester 209s for my trap loads.

Thoughts? I'd really like to use them if possible because I have several thousand of then.

Seat a few in hulls and pop them with your firing pin to be sure they are good. Adjust your charge if required to obtain your desired velocity.

 

[Squaregrouper]

Seat a few in hulls and pop them with your firing pin to be sure they are good. Adjust your charge if required to obtain your desired velocity.

Exactly what I would do.
Seat 20 and pop them off. If they all go bang, they are worth using. If 16-19 go bang, that's the OP's call. If 15 or less go bang, throw them all away.

 

[trickg]

I hadn't even thought of just seating a few and trying them that way.

I'll do that and report back my findings!

 

[pre64hunter]

I found the Federal 209A is a lot hotter than the old Federal 209.
I used the old 209 in developing my 12ga. slug loads. I had a load using
WW 540 that shot great. When I couldn't get the 209 anymore I tried the 209A. The results were bad. The only time I've seen a primer crater on a shotgun load.
The 209A was also too hot for my inline muzzleloader, groups opened up.
My conclusion is no problem with the 209, the 209A is the one you need to be careful with.

 

[trickg]

I found the Federal 209A is a lot hotter than the old Federal 209.
I used the old 209 in developing my 12ga. slug loads. I had a load using
WW 540 that shot great. When I couldn't get the 209 anymore I tried the 209A. The results were bad. The only time I've seen a primer crater on a shotgun load.
The 209A was also too hot for my inline muzzleloader, groups opened up.
My conclusion is no problem with the 209, the 209A is the one you need to be careful with.

I really appreciate this post - thanks!

I hope that these primers are still good, although from what I could see, everything seemed to be stored properly, so in theory, they should be fine.

I'll load up some in empty hulls and pop them off to see if they'll consistently ignite. If they do, I'll be off to the races with those old Federal 209s, but like anything else, I'll try a few out first.

I'm also hunting for recipes using the 452AA powder that was part of that purchase. I have an old recipe in my Dad's ledgers that I think will work:

Hull: Win AA
Powder: 19.5 gr 452AA (MEC Bushing #29)
Wad: Win AA12
Shot: 1-1/8 oz #7.5

The only thing is, I'd hoped to bump down to a 1 oz load for recoil mitigation for the missus, so that probably won't be the powder I use for that - I'll move to a manual listed recipe for that.

And then....once I'm out of the basic components that came with this purchase, I may relegate myself to buying flats of shells when they come up one sale because looking at it casually, I can't see how reloading for 12 ga trap loads is going to be cost effective once I'm out of the powder and primers I have on hand.

 

[Brickman301]

I bought some shotshell reloading gear and amongst the things I received were some older Federal 209 primers - NOT the newer, hotter 209A. Based on the lot number on the box it seems these were made in 1978.

With that in mind, I'm not quite sure how to use them, although I think I can probably use them interchangeably with Winchester 209s for my trap loads.

Thoughts? I'd really like to use them if possible because I have several thousand of then.

Don’t use those old nasty primers, send them to me for proper disposal, lol.
Like others have said, load up a few empty’s and see if they pop. I’m betting they do. I came across some old primers from the same vintage, maybe older? They belonged to my wife’s great uncle, they are still good!

 

[Uncle Duke]

I really appreciate this post - thanks!

I hope that these primers are still good, although from what I could see, everything seemed to be stored properly, so in theory, they should be fine.

I'll load up some in empty hulls and pop them off to see if they'll consistently ignite. If they do, I'll be off to the races with those old Federal 209s, but like anything else, I'll try a few out first.

I'm also hunting for recipes using the 452AA powder that was part of that purchase. I have an old recipe in my Dad's ledgers that I think will work:

Hull: Win AA
Powder: 19.5 gr 452AA (MEC Bushing #29)
Wad: Win AA12
Shot: 1-1/8 oz #7.5

The only thing is, I'd hoped to bump down to a 1 oz load for recoil mitigation for the missus, so that probably won't be the powder I use for that - I'll move to a manual listed recipe for that.

And then....once I'm out of the basic components that came with this purchase, I may relegate myself to buying flats of shells when they come up one sale because looking at it casually, I can't see how reloading for 12 ga trap loads is going to be cost effective once I'm out of the powder and primers I have on hand.

You just described why I haven't pulled a handle on my shotshell press in 25 years.

 

[trickg]

You just described why I haven't pulled a handle on my shotshell press in 25 years.

The only advantage I can see is that when you're pulling the handle, you at least get to choose what goes into it - when you buy ammo, you're beholden to what's available on the shelf, and whatever the prices may be at the time. I do find it interesting though how it almost doesn't make sense to tool up to reload anything "common" - i.e., 9mm, 5.56, 12 ga, etc.

I suppose the other advantage is that if I can produce my own ammo at home, I don't have to worry as much about availability on the shelf and making a point to go buy it, provided I can keep a stock of components - with the MEC 9000, I can crank out a flat of shells in less than 45 minutes.

I know there was a point in time when my Dad was competing in trap and skeet, but based on his reloading records, I think he was probably buying shells during that time - according to his ledgers, from 1969 through 1993 he loaded 5,653 rounds of 12 ga, and usually in small batches - 25 rounds here, 50 rounds there, and on occasion he'd have an entry for 100. In two months, I've already loaded 1,800 rounds. I'm loading specifically for trap shooting for both me and my wife - we'll blow through 150-200 rounds an outing, and sometimes we're at the trap field 2-3x per week. If we keep this up for any length of time, I'll quickly surpass 5,700 rounds provided it remains cost effective to reload, and I can get the necessary components to reload with.

 

[trickg]

I thought I'd update this thread. I tried out 10 of those Federal 209s - seated them in empty hulls, loaded them up and popped them. All seemed to pop just fine, and all seemed to pop with the same volume and "crack."

From what I've read, those Federal 209s seem to be pretty interchangeable with Win 209s, although I'll only load a few to start with to see how they perform. I'm loading fairly low pressure loads with slower velocities - trying to stay in that 1145-1200 fps ballpark, mainly because that's what's required at the trap field.

As it is, I'm now on the dregs of the Red Dot I got in that reloading setup, so I'll have to find some other recipes and do some test loading while I still have my Red Dot loads. Hopefully I can find something I like better or burns cleaner than the Red Dot - it's awfully dirty, although a lil' dirt don't hurt.

I'll probably try that Winchester 452AA - I've got it, so why not, right? That's what it was actually designed for.

 

[85MikeTPI]

I would look at the new Hodgdon Perfect Pattern powder. Should be similar to the RedDot and available and the least expensive of similar

 

[trickg]

I would look at the new Hodgdon Perfect Pattern powder. Should be similar to the RedDot and available and the least expensive of similar

I'm looking into a bunch of stuff - I'm very new to the world of shotshell reloading, so I'm not quite sure where to go with it.

I have some recipes from a guy using TiteGROUP, and I have some of that, but that's not listed as a powder in the Lyman manual. TiteWAD is though.

I'm not sure what powder or other components I'll wind up going with. The guy I bought this setup from made it easy for me - it was already dialed in to load a trap load with Red Dot, #7.5 shot, and a Win/CB AA12 wad, so I really didn't have to figure out much of anything to get going.

 

[dannyp]

Other than trying to mitigate recoil you can buy shells cheaper than you can reload unless you get a great deal on components.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

I thought I'd update this thread. I tried out 10 of those Federal 209s - seated them in empty hulls, loaded them up and popped them. All seemed to pop just fine, and all seemed to pop with the same volume and "crack."

From what I've read, those Federal 209s seem to be pretty interchangeable with Win 209s, although I'll only load a few to start with to see how they perform. I'm loading fairly low pressure loads with slower velocities - trying to stay in that 1145-1200 fps ballpark, mainly because that's what's required at the trap field.

As it is, I'm now on the dregs of the Red Dot I got in that reloading setup, so I'll have to find some other recipes and do some test loading while I still have my Red Dot loads. Hopefully I can find something I like better or burns cleaner than the Red Dot - it's awfully dirty, although a lil' dirt don't hurt.

I'll probably try that Winchester 452AA - I've got it, so why not, right? That's what it was actually designed for.

I may have some Shotgun powder. Next time I look in my supplies I will tell you what I have. If I have any, you are welcome to it.

 

[trickg]

Other than trying to mitigate recoil you can buy shells cheaper than you can reload unless you get a great deal on components.

I did some research into this. Even finding shells on sale, I'd have to buy A LOT before I could buy for less that I can reload. I'd have to find the right sale at the right time as well.

To be fair, the cost savings doesn't seem like much, but my wife and I are ripping through shotgun shells at a pace where it really does make sense to reload. We shot 9 boxes on Saturday when we went out. That's a bit of an aberration, although we do typically go through about 6 boxes on every outing, and we go out at least twice a week.

Here's the breakdown of the math using the current components and pricing via Shyda's - that's where I bought stuff this last time: (Prices include 6% PA Sales tax)

$76.32 - Winchester 209 primers/1000
$31.80/lb - Ramshot Competition Powder (Granted, that was a decent deal on powder.)
$11.66 - Claybuster Wads/500
$49.82 - 25 lbs Shot (cash price)

$76.32 + $31.80 + $11.66 + $49.82 = $169.60 - let's call it $170 even

At that price, each completed shotgun shell has the following:

7.63¢ Primer
0.8¢ - Powder (Rounded up from $.00795)
2.3¢ Wad
12.5¢ Shot at 1 oz, 14¢ at 1-1/8 oz - we'll use the 1-1/8 oz shot weight for this exercise

7.63¢ + .8¢ + 2.3¢ + 14¢ = 24.73¢ per round. That's $6.1825 per box, $61.83 per flat.
(7.63¢ + .8¢ + 2.3¢ + 12.5¢ = 23.23¢ per round. That's $5.81 per box, $58.10 per flat with a 1 oz load.)

Recently I haven't seen flats cheaper than $75.

For as many shotshells as we're going through, even though the savings are what they used to be, it's still worth it for me to reload.

 

[dannyp]

your time is worth something too , how long is it taking to clean up and load a flat of shells ? and then you have to include some hulls in there also , they don't last forever .

 

[trickg]

your time is worth something too , how long is it taking to clean up and load a flat of shells ? and then you have to include some hulls in there also , they don't last forever .

It's always interesting to me the people who want to factor the cost of time as being something to consider when talking about reloading.

I would lay odds that I can walk to my basement and reload a flat of shells faster than you can get in your car, drive to a retailer, buy them and bring them home. (MEC 9000 progressive - I can load a box of shells in about 2-3 minutes, and a whole flat in about 30-40 minutes.) When you buy ammo do you factor the time it takes you to go get them, or do you factor the amount of time you scour the internet looking for the best ammo deals?

Time, IMO, is not a factor, especially considering that I enjoy reloading - does one ever factor the cost of their time if they are doing something they enjoy doing?

In regard to hulls, I literally have thousands of them. I have a 27" tote that's still half-full of once-fired Win AA hulls, and another one that's absolutely stuffed with twice fired hulls. I realize that hulls don't last forever, but the typical Winchester AA hull can be reloaded (from what I've read) as many as 10 times.

I have a long time before the hulls I have on hand get to a point where they can no longer be loaded, and I can always get more hulls for free because the largest percentage of shooters at the trap field throw theirs away. Granted, they may not be the quality Winchester AA hulls, but there are plenty of hulls that can be sourced for free.

 

[trickg]

Here's a pic from my workshop.

The top tote is once-fired Winchester AA hulls - still half full.

The second tote is twice fired Winchester AA hulls - currently it's stuffed and I think I'll need another tote.

The third tote is full of wads and a box box of Peters Blue Magic hulls, which supposedly are better than Winchester AA hulls.

 

[PapiBarcelona]

your time is worth something too , how long is it taking to clean up and load a flat of shells ? and then you have to include some hulls in there also , they don't last forever .

maybe, reloading is a cool hobby to share with kids, wife, but I’m also incredibly lazy and have gotten to the point I’m not interested in standing by myself especially when there ain’t much cost savings. I have Reloading ADHD or something.

My shtick the past few years is a Shyda’s trip, load up on the cheapest 1 ounce stuff. Top off ammo when needed

 

[trickg]

maybe, reloading is a cool hobby to share with kids, wife, but I’m also incredibly lazy and have gotten to the point I’m not interested in standing by myself especially when there ain’t much cost savings. I have Reloading ADHD or something.

My shtick the past few years is a Shyda’s trip, load up on the cheapest 1 ounce stuff. Top off ammo when needed

I guess it depends on what one considers to be cost savings. My shtick in the future will also be a Shyda's trip, but I'll load up on the components to make 1 ounce stuff.