SBR Usefulness

[outrider58]

It's funny that people will spend $200+ on a brace, and bitch about spending $200 on the stamp when they could just put a $30 stock on a SBR.

Right?
I don't mind braces as much as I mind AR pistols on a whole. I have multiple SBRs and only one pistol AR.

 

[grimnar15]

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers. With the arm braces that have exploded in popularity over the past couple years, are SBRs still worth the hassle?

I get it in the terms of an AK in Maryland. I just don't know if it is really more useful for the hassle. Love to hear everyone's thoughts.

My 6.2” inch pinned and welded griffin Armament suppressor on a 10.5” inch barrel made this a 1 stamp non NFA firearm.

 

[jstolz]

Right?
I don't mind braces as much as I mind AR pistols on a whole. I have multiple SBRs and only one pistol AR.

May I ask why you dont like AR pistols? Im just currious.

 

[WildWeasel]

It's funny that people will spend $200+ on a brace, and bitch about spending $200 on the stamp when they could just put a $30 stock on a SBR.

NFA is much harder to 're-register' as well as travel out of state isn't it? IE someone moves a lot due to the military, etc.

 

[erwos]

In terms of return on investment, a machine gun is absolutely a better one.

You know what's gonna make your investment even better? Not shooting it. If you're buying guns with intent to sell them later, and that is the primary driver of what you buy, you're not shooting, you're investing, and that's not what we're talking about in this topic.

The simple fact is that a $1500 SBR is going to be loads more useful, practically speaking, than a $10000 machinegun. I cannot shoot a carbine class or a typical multi-gun shooting match with my M11/9, no matter how much fun it is to dump a mag out of it. So let's please return to the topic at hand, which is that pistol braces are for poseurs who can't figure out how to fill out a form 1.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Haha, I thought that would get some quick replies!

I want a MG so bad. I just have never seen one in a shop under 10k

You can certainly be into a very nice SMG under $10k. Rifles caliber, you are correct on but only just.... a M11 with a Lage 223 upper would have you in it about $11kish.

SBRs cost $200 more than a comparable non-NFA weapon. The pricing difference is really quite minimal, even over multiple guns, once you figure in total build costs.

I see people all the time tricking out $3k SBRs. Then they buy a MG, as thats the natural next step and the SBRs don't get shot. I myself don't really like shooting SBR for the most part as they are just annoyingly loud. Once you get past the part about not being able to do it... they aren't that great. Also with Fingerprints and photos you are more like $250.

Also, not sure I agree with the math. These days, for the cost of 3 nice SBRs, you can get a really bad MG. MG prices have gone up. An 11.5" SOLGW SBR is gonna be much more useful at a class, or a match, or whatever, than a Chauchat. M11/9s, which used to be the starting point, are up to something like $8000-$9000 now.

Really bad MG... please show me one. I have yet to see one of those.

Useful at a class... What class? Match? What match? More fun in general a SBR will never be! FYI... we may be looking into to some MG matches coming up. A SBR will be worthless there...

Na, Macs are still in the $8K range, less for M10s. You put a Lage 9mm or 223 upper on it and you will forget you ever wanted 3 SBRs. Ask anyone who does. Come on our to our shoots and I will prove it to you.

Finally, the measure of usefulness of a gun isn't what you can resell it for. Reselling pistols in MD is actually a somewhat tricky, annoying process, given that they need to be on the roster. And most home builds will lose a lot of money, too.

While resale is a consideration, I am just talking about general fun. A MG will be much more fun than 3 expensive SBRs. Hell you can often use MGs in semi if you need to only shoot semi. Sure their our some odd people that don't like Full Auto but I would be willing to take that bet...

.... In terms of utility, outside of a belt fed serving as a long range area denial tool, most machine guns that are form 4 transferrable don't serve a unique purpose (as in one in which a semi auto can't substitute effectively for a select fire) and aren't all that useful for training classes or competition. In terms of fun, machine guns certainly are that. Assuming you can afford to feed it, and aren't afraid of breaking your investment.

Don't serve a Unique Purpose... I do have to say thats a new one I have not heard before! MGs are usually considered pretty unique and I assume you they serve a purpose. I think every military in the world as found their unique purpose. I assure you in a riot... one will have much more effect... Break it... if it breaks, you fix it... BFD. I shoot 100 year old Maxims and don't worry about it.

Personally I'd rather invest in night vision equipment than a machine gun to gain new capabilities, but that would be a poor financial investment. As to the SBR vs pistol argument, why not both?

Well... I do admit NV is pretty cool. I decided on both NV and MGs. I bought a PVS14 Gen3+ White Phos... its awesome. Even better on a M16! I took a bike ride with it in the woods in the middle of the night. Its sure cool! I agree not a good investment but awesome!

At the AGC:


AT Camp:

Yeah right; SBR(a good one) $3000 with can and two stamps. M4 select fire-full automatic(I'm guessing) between $25K-$35K.

You can be into a M16 for about $19K. You can do a M11 in 223 for about $11k ish and still be able to do a SMG with it.

Right?
I don't mind braces as much as I mind AR pistols on a whole. I have multiple SBRs and only one pistol AR.

I don't have any SBRs or Arm Braces.... just dump those uppers on the MG lower... and shoot.

...The simple fact is that a $1500 SBR is going to be loads more useful, practically speaking, than a $10000 machinegun. I cannot shoot a carbine class or a typical multi-gun shooting match with my M11/9, no matter how much fun it is to dump a mag out of it.....

I love this practical idea.... "of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something rather than with theory and ideas."...
I have shoots 2 times a month where we shoot MGs. I take no classes or run any matches with SBRs... for me MGs are much more practical... None of us are using this to make a living. This is hobby stuff. So do what you like. The main point I am making is that if you are "building" your collection and plan to get into MGs at some point, skip the expensive SBR stage and just save up for a MG. You will not regret it. Now if you need some gun to run a match, a SBR AR15 is not practical for cowboy action either.... does not mean its not practical in general.

Another think to note, on my M16, it has a semi option. It can perform all the functions of the SBR, ever last one... So when I need a SBR in semi, I just stop the switch at 90 degrees rather than 180. So the MG covers all functionality of a SBR, just not the other way around...

 

[outrider58]

May I ask why you dont like AR pistols? Im just currious.

Because many are fake SBRs. You can't put VFGs on them. I like to use those as hand stops. And stocks are more better than braces. I said I don't mind braces, but I prefer stocks. Braced pistols, to me, are range toys for the most part.

 

[outrider58]

I don't say full autos aren't fun, just out of my price range. And then you gotta feed them...

 

[GutPile]

Also, if you have a MD CCW, you can conceal carry your loaded AR pistol in your vehicle or in a "go bag", not so an NFA item.

What is the state restriction on CCW w an SBR? Not familiar with that one.

 

[outrider58]

My opinion on AR pistols is that they are fine, in fact a better alternative for many people. Also, if you have a MD CCW, you can conceal carry your loaded AR pistol in your vehicle or in a "go bag", not so an NFA item.

Md considers SBRs as pistols so yes, you can carry as it it is a handgun, including concealed in a motor vehicle.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

I don't say full autos aren't fun, just out of my price range. And then you gotta feed them...

Are they? Rhetorical question... Add up the value in your gun collection. Few of MG owners bought MGs without selling other guns to fund the purchase. I hear guys with 80 pistols each worth $500 average tell me this all the time. Sell off 20 pistols and get yourself into a MG! Sell off 40 and get a very nice MG. Its about putting funds in the right place. Most can't take the long wait to save up to buy a MG. It takes me years. I sold stuff for a year before building my M16. A year of saving and selling. It was worth every bit of it!

I don't have 80 Pistols... not even 15 modern cartridge ones... but I do have a few MGs...

Its kind of my point for me posting. I hear all the time about how someone buying expensive SBRs can't afford a MG. Don't waste the money on the moderately expensive SBRs... skip that step and go straight to MGs. None have ever come back to say they were sorry they did!

As far as feeding them... You shoot less often and when you do, you shoot more. No one looks at a semi auto and says thats so much more than my bolt gun! However they are right, the rounds go quicker. However you have a lot more fun quickly.

 

[outrider58]

Are they? Rhetorical question... Add up the value in your gun collection. Few of MG owners bought MGs without selling other guns to fund the purchase. I hear guys with 80 pistols each worth $500 average tell me this all the time. Sell off 20 pistols and get yourself into a MG! Sell off 40 and get a very nice MG. Its about putting funds in the right place. Most can't take the long wait to save up to buy a MG. It takes me years. I sold stuff for a year before building my M16. A year of saving and selling. It was worth every bit of it!

I don't have 80 Pistols... not even 15 modern cartridge ones... but I do have a few MGs...

Its kind of my point for me posting. I hear all the time about how someone buying expensive SBRs can't afford a MG. Don't waste the money on the moderately expensive SBRs... skip that step and go straight to MGs. None have ever come back to say they were sorry they did!

As far as feeding them... You shoot less often and when you do, you shoot more. No one looks at a semi auto and says thats so much more than my bolt gun! However they are right, the rounds go quicker. However you have a lot more fun quickly.

I don't buy SBRs. I build them by buying one part at a time as I can afford them. It allows me to build quality guns without hurting my pocketbook.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

I don't buy SBRs. I build them by buying one part at a time as I can afford them. It allows me to build quality guns without hurting my pocketbook.

In my experience, that is the most expensive way to build a SBR. I build uppers piece by piece for my M16... it does not save a single penny! It does give you a nice custom upper that is exactly what you want but you have paid a premium to do it. However somehow I doubt that if money is that tight you are spending $200-$250 on SBRing a $500 AR15 made with PSA parts. I am going to bet you have $2-3K in a SBR and it sure sounds like its not a one time thing.

As I said, its hurts to save for a long time... but if you have the will, there is the way. Or others buy nice guns that hold their value (or go up) and then sell them before they area ready to buy the next MG. I do both. I will buy some things, enjoy for a while and sell off with profit to fun the next MG.

Hell my last MG was the Chauchat and I did nothing but traded parts for it. Not one penny out of the pocket. So it can be done.

 

[outrider58]

In my experience, that is the most expensive way to build a SBR. I build uppers piece by piece for my M16... it does not save a single penny! It does give you a nice custom upper that is exactly what you want but you have paid a premium to do it. However somehow I doubt that if money is that tight you are spending $200-$250 on SBRing a $500 AR15 made with PSA parts. I am going to bet you have $2-3K in a SBR and it sure sounds like its not a one time thing.

As I said, its hurts to save for a long time... but if you have the will, there is the way. Or others buy nice guns that hold their value (or go up) and then sell them before they area ready to buy the next MG. I do both. I will buy some things, enjoy for a while and sell off with profit to fun the next MG.

Hell my last MG was the Chauchat and I did nothing but traded parts for it. Not one penny out of the pocket. So it can be done.

You've completely missed my point. I'm not trying to save money. I don't have $3000 to walk into a store and buy a gun. I damn sure don't have $10K to do that. We have differing mindsets. We'll leave it at that.

 

[sundaeman]

I don't say full autos aren't fun, just out of my price range. And then you gotta feed them...

You just need a little discipline with the selector

Some states don't allow SBRs or MGs. Then the AR pistol lower is part of your toolkit, also you can also use it (or a pre Oct 2013 SBR lower) to experiment with PDW uppers, while you're waiting for that special MG lower to come along.

 

[outrider58]

You just need a little discipline with the selector

Some states don't allow SBRs or MGs. Then the AR pistol lower is part of your toolkit, also you can also use it (or a pre Oct 2013 SBR lower) to experiment with PDW uppers, while you're waiting for that special MG lower to come along.

Well, what fun is that?

 

[teratos]

I have my one machine gun (M11/9) and it’s a ton of fun. I can’t deny that. There will be more in my future, but it’s gonna be a while. I really enjoy shooting my SBR’d. They shoulder and handle better than a “pistol”. Just my strong preference. An AR with a 10.5” barrel, or better, my 9mm AR with a 5” barrel and a suppressor. I’m happy. It’s not for everyone. Yeah, traveling is a little annoying. I imagine if you are military, it’s just painful. You do you.

 

[Ecestu]

8.5" barrel here, 29" overall. Just gotta be creative....

IMG_0670 by 556 Channel (HD), on Flickr

50 shades of black?? Lol.

 

[woodline]

Don't serve a Unique Purpose... I do have to say thats a new one I have not heard before! MGs are usually considered pretty unique and I assume you they serve a purpose. I think every military in the world as found their unique purpose. I assure you in a riot... one will have much more effect... Break it... if it breaks, you fix it... BFD. I shoot 100 year old Maxims and don't worry about it.



Well... I do admit NV is pretty cool. I decided on both NV and MGs. I bought a PVS14 Gen3+ White Phos... its awesome. Even better on a M16! I took a bike ride with it in the woods in the middle of the night. Its sure cool! I agree not a good investment but awesome!

...

It's great to have the option to have a select fire rifle. I won't deny it at all. But it isn't going to make or break you in a situation like that. PCC/SCHV PDWs are one example where "punches in bunches" take them from marginal to acceptable, yet those are easily interchanged with SBRs. Which one is more in fashion is cyclical, but they are pretty neck and neck.

As to NVGs being a good investment or not, it's all about point of view. Someone who wants or needs to be able to work at night would consider them a great investment, though they might feel differently if they needed to sell them quickly. I certainly love my PVS31As, just like I love my select fire AR. But I don't care about either enough to pay for my own. Others will differ in perspective.

I get to shoot a lot of machine guns anyway, so maybe that's why I don't really get too excited about owning them (other than believing it's a constitutional right and the NFA is unconstitutional . . . And I'd love to own a PK. But not for what it would take to get one here). But I also have like 13 silencers, which certainly could have been reduced to zero to pay for a machine gun. But value is relative.

 

[erwos]

I take no classes or run any matches with SBRs...

I am skeptical that you take classes or regularly run matches with MGs, either. For one thing, there are zero competitive shooting sports that allow MGs, even in semi-auto. I have NEVER run into someone bringing an M16 lower to a class. And if you don't actually use your guns (besides making light and noise?), why the **** are you weighing in on what's useful?

Prove me wrong. Thanks.

Also, I own a full-auto M11/9 with a Lage Max11k upper, so please stop lecturing to me about how I don't know about machineguns and the fun of full auto. It gets next to no use compared to my SBRs and competition rifles. If you asked me to grab a rifle to defend myself, it would be nowhere near the top of the list.