SB387 "Public Safety - Untraceable Firearms" - The Ban on Private Firearm Making

[esqappellate]

Just received a response from one of my reps (Guyton) explaining that she “really could not ignore the danger” and so had no choice but to vote in favor of banning. She went on to say that “in this year alone, almost 40% of illegal guns taken off the street in Baltimore were ghost guns.” Not that it matters, but does anyone have a clue where she got that statistic?

Interestingly, she has been willing to engage in a back and forth with me on this. Again, not that it matters. Chris West, who was similarly open to discussion in previous years has not responded to my email this year.

She is way off base. The actual number is 15% per BPD own figures. She is a low-info rep. See MSI testimony and attachment for the numbers. Attached. And the number of gun seizures over the last decade remains pretty much the same regardless. The availability of "ghost guns" has not mattered at all because B Town has plenty of guns to go around.

 

[Soda]

She is way off base. The actual number is 15% per BPD own figures. See MSI testimony and attachment for the numbers. Attached. And the number of gun seizures over the last decade remains pretty much the same regardless. The availability of "ghost guns" has not mattered at all because B Town has plenty of guns to go around.

And how many of that 15% were actually completed kits and not just regular firearms with the serial number filed off? I bet it is a statistically insignificant number.

 

[esqappellate]

And how many of that 15% were actually completed kits and not just regular firearms with the serial number filed off? I bet it is a statistically insignificant number.

Actually they separated out the guns with serial numbers filed off. Way fewer of those. The dope seems to be that almost all were P80 kits. She doesn't have to take our word for it. She can watch the committee hearing. That 15% number was cited by the BPD in their testimony.

 

[whistlersmother]

This guy managed to add a plate to his 3d printed AR https://www.reddit.com/r/GunnitRust/comments/s7t2aq/how_do_yall_feel_about_this_mostly_3d_printed/

I don't recall if he shared the files but he does provide documentation as to how he did it. Still doesn't help those with existing builds or preferance for a particular aesthetic nor have I seen anything similar for the glock or any other available parts kit builds.

I'll have to check this out. Curious as to the exact method he uses. Bookmarking for later.

Thanks

 

[bcr229]

How much does a laser engraving machine capable of engraving to ATF specs cost?

$25-85. The problem isn't the engraving, it's putting the gun on our books as the "maker" since that means we're liable if you sell it and it KB's. The insurance company is coming after the maker not the seller.

Do you really think Glock, Remington, Sig, Smith, etc. are going to mark a gun they didn't produce and put it in their books as the manufacturer?

If the requirement is to engrave and hand the firearm back to the owner with no requirement to put the gun into my A&D or manufacturing log, and no 4473 to go back to the owner, then the work would be considered gunsmithing.

 

[esqappellate]

$25-85. The problem isn't the engraving, it's putting the gun on our books as the "maker" since that means we're liable if you sell it and it KB's. The insurance company is coming after the maker not the seller.

Do you really think Glock, Remington, Sig, Smith, etc. are going to mark a gun they didn't produce and put it in their books as the manufacturer?

If the requirement is to engrave and hand the firearm back to the owner with no requirement to put the gun into my A&D or manufacturing log, and no 4473 to go back to the owner, then the work would be considered gunsmithing.

That is the approach being taken by the ATF in its proposed regs. But the 'smith is generally also an FFL and he would be required to put the engraving in his books per ATF proposed rule

 

[ironpony]

My question on serial number was about “Glock” manufacturer of Austria. All the ATF info is not on their metal plates.

Anyway …. Dispossesing this empty box.

 

[PumpkinScissors]

I'll have to check this out. Curious as to the exact method he uses. Bookmarking for later.

Thanks

No problem.

It does make me wonder though... since the removal of the plate requires destroying the frame, but not the plate (correct?), one could theoretically remove the plate and use it on a newly printed or otherwise manufactured frame. If one wears out/breaks or you just want another color/different look you just destroy the old and insert into new.

 

[Muleskinner]

It actually has some reliability issues as a wallowed out one of the block pins holes. I “replaced” it with a serialized gen 3 frame a couple of years ago. Been sitting in a box since. I could only getting it running about 98% and that wasn’t good enough for me.

I have some other 80s I have concerns over, but that “not great” one is the only V1 I’ve got. So if it can’t comply and I need to destroy it, or hey, maybe MSP will run a buy back and take frames. Well it pisses me off in principle. But that’s about as far as my level of being mad about that ONE goes.

The others, fugh them. Since they aren’t built, I am looking to sell them because I just don’t have the bandwidth to deal with this. Yes I’ve written stuff to my legislators over it. But call me a boot licker if you want, but I am not in the WWNC crowd (not yet anyway). If it proves too difficult to sell and get some value back out, I’ll see if I can jump through the hoops to serialize and register them if that is possible before engraving “FU FROSH” on each one with a soldering iron and turning them in to my local MSP barracks.

I've got five of the Gen 1 version 1 frames with the plastic rear rails. I upgraded to the version 2.5 but I still have those five frames. I think if and when this passes I will put them in a box and take them down town Baltimore and drop them off on a street corner somewhere.

 

[stricer555]

There is at least an argument (it is very unclear) that you might still be able to build as long as you register it. See language of new Section 704 in SB 387:
(A) A PERSON WHO MAKES, COMPLETES, OR INITIALLY ASSEMBLES A FIREARM, OR THE CURRENT LEGAL OWNER OF THE FIREARM, SHALL REGISTER THE FIREARM WITH THE SECRETARY.
(B) THE SECRETARY SHALL MAINTAIN A SYSTEM TO REGISTER FIREARMS IMPRINTED WITH SERIAL NUMBERS UNDER § 5–703(B)(2)(II) OF THIS SUBTITLE.

I was under the impression that even possession of "anything marketed as being able to be made into a receiver" was banned after some grace period, I think October 2023. That's how I understood it from watching the senate sessions.

 

[Allen65]

What about those who don't own a machine that can do that? How about engraving that little tiny piece of metal riveted to the underside of the frame on a Glock pistol? The general assembly knows that jumping through these hoops is going to be next to impossible especially if no ffls will cooperate with the serialization. And I'm certain that it's all been done on purpose so that it will be next to impossible to comply with.

Yeah, understood. $5k is a lot of $ to most people, especially if machining isn't their hobby. And most FFLs would probably view that amount as not having a positive return on investment with what they'd be able to charge per unit, especially when labor is factored in. The surface being engraved needs to be perfectly flat and parallel to the mill's table, which requires a lot of setup time for odd shapes like lowers and pistol frames.

I was just trying to correct some of the misinformation flying about that it's a $40k investment for a business to buy gear to do commercial-quality engraving. If we try to use the "tens of thousands of dollars" argument, we're making it easy for the other side to kill our credibility using a single catalog page.

 

[chinchong87]

Have we figured out how NFA’d receivers are supposed to jive with this bill?

 

[Abagnale]

I don't understand what the problem is....
Just buy a Ghost Gunner 3 and make handguns and rifles from solid blocks of aluminum......

[YT]jsvIBeGbJDA[/YT]

https://ghostgunner.net/

And if you don't like the gas prices just buy a $55,000 electric car....

I feel so liberal and trendy....

 

[rcreynolds]

I have a block of aluminum - is it an unfinished receiver?

 

[Abagnale]

Or here's an even better possible idea...
Would it be legal to buy a Ghost Gunner 3 machine for the gun builders enthusiast community and loan it out to members that want to build their own firearms with it? I don't know if that would be legal which is why I'm asking.
I mean I don't see how it would be any different from loaning out any other tool or machine.
I guess it's a question for a lawyer.

 

[rcreynolds]

Ratty looking chicks but the machinery looks good.

 

[Abagnale]

Kamala Harris presents the Zero Percent Receiver.....



[YT]9zRWK-n2SrY[/YT]

 

[Occam]

I don't understand what the problem is....
Just buy a Ghost Gunner 3 and make handguns and rifles from solid blocks of aluminum......

[YT]jsvIBeGbJDA[/YT]

Does it come with the soundtrack, the dancers, and the nightclub lighting? Because that might really seal the deal for me.

 

[mvee]

https://www.visionengravers.com

These guys build a engraving machines that at least some manufacturers use to engrave lowers. The 1624 machine was ~15k 10 years ago. They have smaller machines that should be able to handle a single lower.

 

[KIBarrister]

Or here's an even better possible idea...
Would it be legal to buy a Ghost Gunner 3 machine for the gun builders enthusiast community and loan it out to members that want to build their own firearms with it? I don't know if that would be legal which is why I'm asking.
I mean I don't see how it would be any different from loaning out any other tool or machine.
I guess it's a question for a lawyer.

Likely not legal is the short answer. There is some gray space, but having someone pay to push a CNC button isn't going to cut it for BATFE.

Every last SOB in Annapolis can kiss the fattest part of my ass.