SB387 "Public Safety - Untraceable Firearms" - The Ban on Private Firearm Making

[Stein79]

They can **** off.

 

[teratos]

In the world history of gun control, every word of gun control without exception is used as precedent for the next and CONFISCATION is the ultimate goal of all gun control and REGISTRATION, which you can't do without serialization is the last step before CONFISCATION, they have to know who has them before they can take them.
IF Maryland Residents don't oppose with unprecedented mass public protests and don't let their elected officials rest till gun control is off the table, CONFISCATION is
inevitable and will spread like a cancer to the U.S. House & Senate and coast to coast nationwide.

Self Preservation using => force than can be brought against you is a human birthright. In the U.S. this is protected by, not created by the Second Amendment. Every word of Gun Control without exception be it federal, state, local or other municipality is Unconstitutional PERIOD. As is requiring government permission or knowledge thereof in anyway, shape or form.
Without maintaing an effective means to remove and replace a tyrannical government; we are all slaves.

With a vindictive government, I have no desire to engage in public protest. I will quietly do what I have always done.

 

[lazarus]

~~
Define "readily converted."

Oh, you can't, Senator? Then GFY. We have a definition of a firearm. Not of "something that might become a firearm eventually." (note I am addressing a hypothetical lawmaker, not jcutonilli)

AFAIK, an FFL could receive the frame, log it in, serialize it, as long as he stayed below threshold (an 01. No limits for an 07), and reported it to ATF as his make/manufacture, THEN transferred it back to you on a 4473.

Let's not forget, ATF has tried (and succeeded in one case!) arguing that readily converted means a machine shop, specialized knowledge and a couple of hours of work.

Not handtools, youtube and 30 minutes.

That is getting real close to a blank piece of metal is "readily convertible" if a full machine shop and the knowledge to use it means something is readily convertible. Hell, the ATF would consider my trailer "readily convertible" to have a shock suspension. But here I am, just gotten some shocks from a suburban, I need to weld bolts on to the leaf spring perches and then custom fabricate an upper mount and weld it to the frame. But I guess that is 'readily convertible'

 

[Occam]

Without maintaing an effective means to remove and replace a tyrannical government; we are all slaves.

Just remember that the Antifa-types and more bureaucratic wannabe socialist elitists ALSO think this is true, and consider that phrase you quoted in the DOI to apply to them as much as we think it applies to us.

The Declaration isn't law. It's a vision, but it's not binding. It explains to anyone who cares why we were willing to cross the Delaware at night and shoot British soldiers in the face for Christmas. But it's not law. The Constitution is the law.

And it provides ways to change our charter ... but it's deliberately difficult, and the lefties HATE that they have to get 37 states - by necessity including a lot of those hated flyover states full of redneck rubes - to do it with them. So they're trying another approach (wreck the country so badly that eventually even the rednecks will beg the left to save them ... or so the delusion appears to be dreamt).

 

[intobaitem]

It is still just stunning to me that they refuse to address the people committing crimes with firearms, or any violent crimes, but instead choose to focus on a piece of steel and plastic. It allows them to ignore their failed policies and divert the blame anywhere else. Just crazy.

 

[Bob A]

With a vindictive government, I have no desire to engage in public protest. I will quietly do what I have always done.

Maryland has been very effective in shutting down the unruly subjects, blatantly ignoring any facts, and intimidating the populace.

Got guns? We've got a crime that will strip you of your rights forever, and you don't have to do anything to be found guilty.

They have your names. Don't get uppity.

 

[JMB]

So glad I am moving out of this state. Moving to a 2A friendly state.

 

[MichaelZWilliamson]

Let's not forget, ATF has tried (and succeeded in one case!) arguing that readily converted means a machine shop, specialized knowledge and a couple of hours of work.

If it's the case I recall, they argued they didn't even need to headspace a .50 BMG, that just chambering was sufficient to be a "firearm." Which fits the letter of the law.

I'd have to see the receiver in question to express an opinion on how complete it was.

But I'm currently working on acquiring a DEWAT DP28 that was "deactivated" by welding the breech. The receiver is completely intact, and the barrels are readily swapped...

1962 was a kinder, gentler time for gun owners.

 

[Bohemian]

Our American Declaration of Independence is the supreme, unamendable moral law of the United States. Declarational law preceded and trumps our supreme, amendable secular law, the Constitution. As stated in our Declaration, the purpose of secular law (Constitution) is to secure our sacred, unalienable, equal, individual rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness -- i.e., private property honestly earned through creative labor: "That to secure these rights, Governments [constitutions] are instituted among Men...
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2010/05/declaration_of_independence_as_1.html

Lexington & Concord 101: The de facto start of the Revolutionary war was in Opposition to every word of Gun Control.

 

[Docster]

While I agree with the last paragraph, what ranges are going to start checking serial numbers?
The police may want to search my car if they pull me over but they aren’t doing that without probable cause or a warrant.
Same goes for my house.

Know your rights and use them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^^THIS, pretty straightforward More need to remember to use their rights and bitch less.

 

[Nickberg500]

Somebody above mentioned that you cannot alter a serial number, in the context of what to do when there's an existing number.

I want to fully address this so I know what I can use in testimony - it looks like the above may not actually apply to common homebuilders but I want verification from the brain trust here:

18 U.S.C. § 922(k):

It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in*interstate or foreign commerce, any*firearm*which has had the*importer’s or*manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any*firearm*which has had the*importer’s or*manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in*interstate or foreign commerce.

Definition of manufacturer:

The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

Per the above, it sounds like altering a homemade serial number is lawful as a manufacturer is defined with "purposes of sale or distribution".

Please somebody confirm this for me; my best guess is an FFL could testify that they would have to destroy firearms they previously serialized under a different numbering scheme than what's required. I need to know the distinction here as the above testimony could apply to me too if it were illegal for me to deface serial numbers I made in my own home.

 

[Rocinante]

Somebody above mentioned that you cannot alter a serial number, in the context of what to do when there's an existing number.

I want to fully address this so I know that I can use in testimony - it looks like the above may not actually apply to common homebuilders but I want verification from the brain trust here:

18 U.S.C. § 922(k):


Definition of manufacturer:


Per the above, it sounds like altering a homemade serial number is lawful as a manufacturer is defined with "purposes of sale or distribution".

Please somebody confirm this; my best guess is an FFL could testify that they would have to destroy firearms they previously serialized under a different numbering scheme than what's required. I need to know the distinction here as the above testimony could apply to me too if it were illegal for me to deface serial numbers I made in my own home.

AFT treats the individual homebuilder as the "manufacturer". The only difference in practice between a "manufacturer" and "licensed manufacturer" is if you are distributing your finished product. This is originally how the AFT was going to nail Joseph Roh for "manufacturing without a license" (he walked free), and subsequently how this whole charade of frames/receivers started.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/10/17/the-curious-case-of-joseph-roh/

To that point, if one applies to NFA a lower (without a trust), even an 80%, you must engrave your legal name as the manufacturer, hence you are legally the manufacturer to the AFT. So, if a serial number already exists on your 80%, it would be against federal law for anyone to change it and only a licensed importer may change serial numbers to foreign-made guns only (and they may only add to the serial number, they cannot replace it)- and to my knowledge the AFT's proposed regs on frames/receivers does not alter this specific reg.
https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need-to-engrave-an-80-receiver-i-am-going-to-sbr/
https://johnpierceesq.com/what-are-...graving-an-item-you-are-building-on-a-form-1/

1) When you build an NFA item subsequent to a Form 1 approval, you are legally the ‘manufacturer’ of the resulting NFA item even if it is built upon an existing serialized lower.

2) 27 CFR 478.92 and 27 CFR 479.102 both lay out the requirements for placing identifying markings on items you ‘manufacture’.

3) These regulations require that you engrave a serial number, model (if applicable), caliber or gauge, manufacturer’s name, and the city and state where the item was ‘manufactured’.

4) If you are using an NFA trust to hold your NFA items then the trust name is the manufacturer’s name you will need to engrave. If not, you will need to engrave your full legal name as the manufacturer.

5) When you ‘manufacture’ an SBR or SBS using an existing lower the ATF allows you to ‘adopt’ the serial number, caliber/gauge, and/or model already identified on the lower if the lower meets or exceeds the marking requirements. See ATF Ruling 2013-3 embedded below.

I am not a lawyer.

 

[Nickberg500]

AFT treats the individual homebuilder as the "manufacturer". The only difference in practice between a "manufacturer" and "licensed manufacturer" is if you are distributing your finished product. This is originally how the AFT was going to nail Joseph Roh for "manufacturing without a license" (he walked free), and subsequently how this whole charade of frames/receivers started.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/10/17/the-curious-case-of-joseph-roh/

To that point, if one applies to NFA a lower (without a trust), even an 80%, you must engrave your legal name as the manufacturer, hence you are legally the manufacturer to the AFT. So, if a serial number already exists on your 80%, it would be against federal law for anyone to change it and only a licensed importer may change serial numbers to foreign-made guns only (and they may only add to the serial number, they cannot replace it)- and to my knowledge the AFT's proposed regs on frames/receivers does not alter this specific reg.
https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need-to-engrave-an-80-receiver-i-am-going-to-sbr/
https://johnpierceesq.com/what-are-...graving-an-item-you-are-building-on-a-form-1/



I am not a lawyer.

If more people can verify this, then my proposal is simply that a small handgun with a tiny engraving area, pre-engraved, would have to be destroyed under this proposed legislation.

 

[teratos]

If more people can verify this, then my proposal is simply that a small handgun with a tiny engraving area, pre-engraved, would have to be destroyed under this proposed legislation.

If I would have built firearms at home, I'd have serialized them all.

 

[BeoBill]

^^THIS, pretty straightforward More need to remember to use their rights and bitch less.

I believe we're moving toward a "Mopar Moment" in our testimony. I also believe it may be necessary, since most of our "legislators" don't seem to care about testimony or laws that have been already written...

 

[lazarus]

^^THIS, pretty straightforward More need to remember to use their rights and bitch less.

The problem is when the exercise of rights has been legislated in to illegality. That’s all fine and good if you aren’t caught exercising your rights.

But yelling about how it’s your rights as they arrest you wont change your outcome unless the Supreme Court decides you are right. And even then, you’ve had your life disrupted and possibly destroyed along the way.

Giving up the fight before bad laws get passed doesn’t help a thing.

 

[jkeys]

The crime isn't for making these in the past, but the continued possession after or failure to comply by the date set (1/1/2023).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ex_post_facto

It is amazing that the government can make someone a criminal through that person's inaction. **** that.

 

[jcutonilli]

AFT treats the individual homebuilder as the "manufacturer". The only difference in practice between a "manufacturer" and "licensed manufacturer" is if you are distributing your finished product. This is originally how the AFT was going to nail Joseph Roh for "manufacturing without a license" (he walked free), and subsequently how this whole charade of frames/receivers started.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/10/17/the-curious-case-of-joseph-roh/

To that point, if one applies to NFA a lower (without a trust), even an 80%, you must engrave your legal name as the manufacturer, hence you are legally the manufacturer to the AFT. So, if a serial number already exists on your 80%, it would be against federal law for anyone to change it and only a licensed importer may change serial numbers to foreign-made guns only (and they may only add to the serial number, they cannot replace it)- and to my knowledge the AFT's proposed regs on frames/receivers does not alter this specific reg.
https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need-to-engrave-an-80-receiver-i-am-going-to-sbr/
https://johnpierceesq.com/what-are-...graving-an-item-you-are-building-on-a-form-1/



I am not a lawyer.

The ATF does not treat the individual homebuilder as the "manufacturer" The term "manufacturer" has a precise definition that requires a person to be engaged in the business. See 18 USC 921(a)(10), 27 CFR 478.11, 26 USC 5845(m), 27 CFR 479.11. An individual homebuilder tends not to be engaged in the business because the principle objective of the manufacturing is not related to their livelihood and profit. See 18 USC 921(a)(21)

The only requirement for non NFA firearms to be marked with serial numbers is for licensed importers and manufacturers. See 18 USC 923(i). It is unlawful to alter/remove these manufacturer/importer serial numbers. See 18 USC 922(k).

For NFA firearms the marking requirement applies to manufacturers, importers and "anyone making a firearm". See 26 USC 5842(a). A homebuilder would likely be considered a maker under the NFA. It is unlawful to alter/remove serial numbers required by the NFA See 26 USC 5861(g),(h),(i)

I find no requirements that prohibit any additional markings or regulate what happens to these non required markings.

 

[DC-W]

It is amazing that the government can make someone a criminal through that person's inaction. **** that.

Yup, strict liability. No requirement that one actually know they’ve committed or intend to commit a crime.

 

[DC-W]

The predictable counter to whatever it is that Hogan says should be doing on crime is that if he really wants to affect crime, he needs to send hosts of Marylanders to prison by supporting the proposed bills on unserialized firearms: https://twitter.com/Lkfoley/status/1489188769836187649?s=20&t=-zT6oIOqkwH3wSW6G3vGZQ