Savage cancels 300BLK loading due to poor accuracy

[Russ D]

...but yet people talk about the ballistic drop of 7.62x39 being a nightmare to compensate for, but 300 yards with a subsonic is perfectly fine?........................................again, the hypocrisy is just mind boggling.

How exactly do you lump everyone into one argument? Who said people who like the 300blk also do not like the 7.62x39? You are cofusing the issue. This isn't a comparison.

 

[Lapua Dan]

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[G O B]

Subsonic .30 cal anything is a fail. At pistol velocities you need pistol bullets. .45 is a real nice bullet at 900 fps. .30 cal at 900 fps is weak.

 

[Russ D]

Subsonic .30 cal anything is a fail. At pistol velocities you need pistol bullets. .45 is a real nice bullet at 900 fps. .30 cal at 900 fps is weak.

See Midcounties post with first had reports of termial performance.

 

[ericoak]

Advantage of the subsonic 300 round is the down range performance. From muzzle to 300 yards and beyond the energy loss is minimal. Accuracy is exceptional for a subsonic round, and not able to be duplicated by loading 7.62x39 or .308 Winchester rounds. The 300 casing promotes an accurate burn of the powder. Pistol rounds can not achieve the results of the 300 because of the ballistic coefficient of the projectiles. As for hunting with the subsonics, they work and I have seen it first hand. My AR platform killed two 300 pound hogs last fall, and a customer has killed numerous deer with a bolt gun I built for him. The long heavy bullet tumbles on impact, making a very terminal wound. Try that at 200 plus yards with a 9mm subsonic. Yes, it is a niche round, but one that has had a following for decades. Will it always be mainstream ? Maybe not, but it will always be around for those that realize the real potential of it.

That makes sense to me. Although I would rather blast that hog with your MG42 over an ar-15.

 

[mikec]

That makes sense to me. Although I would rather blast that hog with your MG42 over an ar-15.

Come on, you aren't supposed to make sausage in the field. You wait until you get the hog home.

 

[Drmsparks]

Take a look at this from my perspective....

I shoot military (cmp) matches with my garand and 03a3 (all thirty cal). I'm building a 1941 USMC and 1903a4 because I can and my eyes are liking scopes more and more...

I love shooting my m1a (30 cal)......I sense a lot of 30 cal projectiles around my house.

the m1 carbine is the most fun gun of all time. The ar 15 is one of the easiest to customize and fit to yourself...

The 300 AAC ar is a 21st century m1 carbine. It's close range, able to run really quiet if you want and able to nicely shoot a pistol type cartridge that has decent long range potential (300 yards) if the desire strikes you.

I have never been into weird calibers. This one just fits a perfect niche for me that I'm going to seriously enjoy.

 

[midcountyg]

Subsonic .30 cal anything is a fail. At pistol velocities you need pistol bullets. .45 is a real nice bullet at 900 fps. .30 cal at 900 fps is weak.

You are not getting the point. The 300 launches a 220gr(or 240gr if not in a semi auto) projectile at 1000 fps, which hits with the same energy, give or take a little, as the 45 ACP at the muzzle. The tumbling effect of the bullet produces a wound cavity larger then the ACP round due to a very long projectile going through the flesh side ways. Proof of that is the two broken ribs on the exit side of the 300 pound hog I shot with it. Now the ACP may be more of a man stopper, if loaded with the proper hollow points, at a close range. However, the 300 looses only about 100 fps from muzzle to 300 plus yards. At 300 yards it is still accurate enough, and packs the energy enough, to be as terminal as an ACP is around 50 yards. Pistol bullets can not maintain the velocity at long range, as it is simple aerodynamics. High velocity rifle rounds also loose velocity at a much higher rate as well, but that is a whole different topic. These figures will vary some, as it's too late for me too pull up all the numbers and do a complete side by side comparison.
As far as comparing the accuracy of the 300 to 7.62x39? You have to first compare apples to apples. Shooting supersonic from both, the 300 has a slight edge. Is it enough edge to make a huge difference, perhaps not. Go to subsonics from both and the game changes. The case design will hinder the 7.62's ability to maintain a consistent burn. Also, where will you get quality projectiles in the 220gr range for the .311 bore? Yes, .308 projectiles will work, but the .003" looser bore is going to be detrimental to long range accuracy. Now you could custom chamber a .308 barrel to accept the 7.62x39 case, but you would then have something that could chamber factory ammo that may blow your face off when fired. You could have custom bullets made, maybe tweak the casings with custom made dies, have a custom chamber reamer made to match the dies.... but wouldn't it be easier to just go with an already established performer? And to address loading 7.62 bullets backwards, that is something people have tried thinking they could make it more terminal on impact. Truth is it doesn't work. The ballistic coefficient goes out the window, accuracy goes to hell, it won't feed in typical semis, and at subsonic speeds it will not mushroom a rifle bullet. The tumbling effect is how you get results, not trying to achieve the impossible of making a slow moving thick jacketed rifle bullet expand. I build AKs, Love AKs, have a number of AKs, and have a Krinkov that is able to nail the crap out of targets at 300 yards after being fired all morning in full auto mode. I don't disrespect the 7.62x39 round, but I know what it was designed for and what it's limits are. If hitting a 300 yard target is my only concern, I know my AKs are up to the task. When it comes time to hit a 300 yard target with pellet gun stealth and the energy to land a fatal shot, it's time for my suppressed 300 with the proper hand loads.

 

[midcountyg]

That makes sense to me. Although I would rather blast that hog with your MG42 over an ar-15.

Now that would be fun

 

[guthook]

That makes sense to me. Although I would rather blast that hog with your MG42 over an ar-15.

Dogs blast hogs.

 

[Nemesis]

You are not getting the point. The 300 launches a 220gr(or 240gr if not in a semi auto) projectile at 1000 fps, which hits with the same energy, give or take a little, as the 45 ACP at the muzzle. The tumbling effect of the bullet produces a wound cavity larger then the ACP round due to a very long projectile going through the flesh side ways. Proof of that is the two broken ribs on the exit side of the 300 pound hog I shot with it. Now the ACP may be more of a man stopper, if loaded with the proper hollow points, at a close range. However, the 300 looses only about 100 fps from muzzle to 300 plus yards. At 300 yards it is still accurate enough, and packs the energy enough, to be as terminal as an ACP is around 50 yards. Pistol bullets can not maintain the velocity at long range, as it is simple aerodynamics. High velocity rifle rounds also loose velocity at a much higher rate as well, but that is a whole different topic. These figures will vary some, as it's too late for me too pull up all the numbers and do a complete side by side comparison.
As far as comparing the accuracy of the 300 to 7.62x39? You have to first compare apples to apples. Shooting supersonic from both, the 300 has a slight edge. Is it enough edge to make a huge difference, perhaps not. Go to subsonics from both and the game changes. The case design will hinder the 7.62's ability to maintain a consistent burn. Also, where will you get quality projectiles in the 220gr range for the .311 bore? Yes, .308 projectiles will work, but the .003" looser bore is going to be detrimental to long range accuracy. Now you could custom chamber a .308 barrel to accept the 7.62x39 case, but you would then have something that could chamber factory ammo that may blow your face off when fired. You could have custom bullets made, maybe tweak the casings with custom made dies, have a custom chamber reamer made to match the dies.... but wouldn't it be easier to just go with an already established performer? And to address loading 7.62 bullets backwards, that is something people have tried thinking they could make it more terminal on impact. Truth is it doesn't work. The ballistic coefficient goes out the window, accuracy goes to hell, it won't feed in typical semis, and at subsonic speeds it will not mushroom a rifle bullet. The tumbling effect is how you get results, not trying to achieve the impossible of making a slow moving thick jacketed rifle bullet expand. I build AKs, Love AKs, have a number of AKs, and have a Krinkov that is able to nail the crap out of targets at 300 yards after being fired all morning in full auto mode. I don't disrespect the 7.62x39 round, but I know what it was designed for and what it's limits are. If hitting a 300 yard target is my only concern, I know my AKs are up to the task. When it comes time to hit a 300 yard target with pellet gun stealth and the energy to land a fatal shot, it's time for my suppressed 300 with the proper hand loads.

...the question is though...why would you?

at 300 yards a target will be hit before they even hear the shot...even with the amazing BC of those rounds, and such a minimal velocity loss you still have 5 feet of drop at 200 yards...and over 13 feet of drop at 300, thats going to be hell to compensate for...is your target going to be still long enough for you to make the proper adjustments and hold to land the shot? also consider that the time of flight is almost a second to hit at 300 yards, a normal person walking will move 6+ feet within that time frame...this further complicates your shot...

this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem, its foolish...and thats the last i have to say about it...subsonic rifle rounds that is, not the 300 blackout...it has a valid point to its existence, i may not like it, but i have to admit its decent round...again though, subsonic rifle rounds...their the foolish part of it.

 

[Russ D]

Foolish I tell ya, we are all fools.

 

[midcountyg]

...the question is though...why would you?

at 300 yards a target will be hit before they even hear the shot...even with the amazing BC of those rounds, and such a minimal velocity loss you still have 5 feet of drop at 200 yards...and over 13 feet of drop at 300, thats going to be hell to compensate for...is your target going to be still long enough for you to make the proper adjustments and hold to land the shot? also consider that the time of flight is almost a second to hit at 300 yards, a normal person walking will move 6+ feet within that time frame...this further complicates your shot...

this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem, its foolish...and thats the last i have to say about it...subsonic rifle rounds that is, not the 300 blackout...it has a valid point to its existence, i may not like it, but i have to admit its decent round...again though, subsonic rifle rounds...their the foolish part of it.

Obviously you don't have a use for such a set up, and that is fine. But to at least one customer likes the fact that he has taken as many as four deer at a time from the same herd before the rest of the herd knew they were being shot at. What is foolish to you is very helpful to others.

 

[ericoak]

...the question is though...why would you?

at 300 yards a target will be hit before they even hear the shot...even with the amazing BC of those rounds, and such a minimal velocity loss you still have 5 feet of drop at 200 yards...and over 13 feet of drop at 300, thats going to be hell to compensate for...is your target going to be still long enough for you to make the proper adjustments and hold to land the shot? also consider that the time of flight is almost a second to hit at 300 yards, a normal person walking will move 6+ feet within that time frame...this further complicates your shot...

this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem, its foolish...and thats the last i have to say about it...subsonic rifle rounds that is, not the 300 blackout...it has a valid point to its existence, i may not like it, but i have to admit its decent round...again though, subsonic rifle rounds...their the foolish part of it.

Because when you hunt you want to be able to hear the whole time, and then you don't want to have to throw hearing protection on at the last second for the kill shot(s). At least to me that seems to be the advantage to me, but again I never have shot the 300BLK or been hog hunting.

 

[Nemesis]

Obviously you don't have a use for such a set up, and that is fine. But to at least one customer likes the fact that he has taken as many as four deer at a time from the same herd before the rest of the herd knew they were being shot at. What is foolish to you is very helpful to others.

Im sorry, i respect your application, however i find that very unsporty.

 

[Kingjamez]

Im sorry, i respect your application, however i find that very unsporty.

Well then I suggest you strangle the deer, after all firearms make it un-sporting otherwise. Grasping a bit there Nemesis?

A 300blk is next on my list. It's a rifle that I can reach out over longer distances than my urban environment permits, as well as performing well inside my home without destroying my hearing when something goes bump in the night. What's NOT to like?

-Jim

 

[Nemesis]

Well then I suggest you strangle the deer, after all firearms make it un-sporting otherwise. Grasping a bit there Nemesis?

A 300blk is next on my list. It's a rifle that I can reach out over longer distances than my urban environment permits, as well as performing well inside my home without destroying my hearing when something goes bump in the night. What's NOT to like?

-Jim

Grasping? No...hunting with firearms is fine with me...but using subsonics and a such to take multiple members of a herd in such a manner is just crap...

 

[Indiana Jones]

Grasping? No...hunting with firearms is fine with me...but using subsonics and a such to take multiple members of a herd in such a manner is just crap...

I understand your logic. And definitely respect it, but if someone handed me an MG42 and said "those deer need to go".....I'd unload til the barrel melted. Far too many bad deer experiences...bastards. I'm with you nemesis as to where it's kinda a weird solution to nothingness. But it does seem to have practical applications for people needing to take mouse fart quiet shots and still kill something. It's a real niche caliber. I doubt it'll ever be mass produce main stream like the "usual" AR calibers now. I probably won't get one because it's expensive at the moment, and I honestly think its fad will pass. Not saying its worthless, or uncool, it's just like the mini cooper. People think its awesome at first then are like OK.....not as cool as it was last year. (I'm sure the 300blk performs better than a mini copper haha)

 

[gmhowell]

Grasping? No...hunting with firearms is fine with me...but using subsonics and a such to take multiple members of a herd in such a manner is just crap...

My brother has hit three of the bastards on Poorhouse Rd. in the past five years. He'd be happy with anything that would thin them out a little bit.

 

[G O B]

"...slow that bullet down to 55MPH and attach headlights.."