Registration Conundrum

[BigMac]

Being under 21 and looking to purchase more firearms, I've run into some questions regarding regulated firearms and registration. I've tried doing some research but haven't found any answers, hoping someone here can answer my questions or point me in the right direction.

1) My understanding is that a lower receiver is a 'regulated firearm' and thus subject to registration and minimum age. I can, however, purchase a complete firearm. Are there then any restrictions on me separating the upper and lower? From the text that I have seen it would seem that simply breaking down a legal ar to clean it or to swap the upper would put me in possession of a regulated firearm and be criminal.
2) I've been putting off buying an ar15 until I'm 21 so that I can get an ar-pistol and freely switch between pistol and rifle configurations (HBAR or non-556 ofc). After researching the SBR and 'handgun' criteria for a neighbor, I had the idea to buy an ar15 which was originally configured as a pistol but is now a rifle, so that when I turn 21 I will be free to convert to a pistol. Would there be any issues with buying such a firearm because it was originally a 'regulated firearm' and what would be the registration or other requirements should I convert it back to a pistol?

I appreciate any input, TIA

 

[dblas]

Being under 21 and looking to purchase more firearms, I've run into some questions regarding regulated firearms and registration. I've tried doing some research but haven't found any answers, hoping someone here can answer my questions or point me in the right direction.

1) My understanding is that a lower receiver is a 'regulated firearm' and thus subject to registration and minimum age. I can, however, purchase a complete firearm. Are there then any restrictions on me separating the upper and lower?

No restriction on separating them, what you put on the lower does have restrictions.

From the text that I have seen it would seem that simply breaking down a legal ar to clean it or to swap the upper would put me in possession of a regulated firearm and be criminal.

Since an AR15 in Maryland is cash and carry, and an HBAR, it is NOT a regulated firearm, neither are the parts.

2) I've been putting off buying an ar15 until I'm 21 so that I can get an ar-pistol and freely switch between pistol and rifle configurations (HBAR or non-556 ofc).

So far so good.

After researching the SBR and 'handgun' criteria for a neighbor, I had the idea to buy an ar15 which was originally configured as a pistol but is now a rifle, so that when I turn 21 I will be free to convert to a pistol.

You can't, you purchased a rifle, and thus it cannot be converted into a pistol under federal law.

Would there be any issues with buying such a firearm because it was originally a 'regulated firearm' and what would be the registration or other requirements should I convert it back to a pistol?

I appreciate any input, TIA

If you buy it as a rifle, it is a rifle, and cannot be converted into a pistol under federal law, only an SBR (not less than 29" OAL).

Others will be along to tell say, "who knew it was a rifle, so what you want."

If you "register" (There is no registration in Maryland, only a record of transfers to you). a pistol made by you, from a rifle, be prepared to surrender all of your firearms and kiss all of your 2A rights good bye for life.

 

[BigMac]

Since an AR15 in Maryland is cash and carry, and an HBAR, it is NOT a regulated firearm, neither are the parts.

But isn't a lower receiver regulated? For example I cannot buy a lower without an HQL and until I'm 21. Does that classification go away permanently once it's part of a complete rifle?

You can't, you purchased a rifle, and thus it cannot be converted into a pistol under federal law.

I'm aware of the SBR regulations but it seems that if it's originally configured as a pistol then it's fine. Although I cannot make a pistol, I would buy it from someone who originally configured it as a pistol (from a lower) and then switched it to a rifle (29+" OAL and a stock) before they sold it to me. Does the SBR 'rifle' classification go based on how I bought it or based on the original configuration of the original owner?

 

[scottyfz6]

But isn't a lower receiver regulated? For example I cannot buy a lower without an HQL and until I'm 21. Does that classification go away permanently once it's part of a complete rifle?

I'm aware of the SBR regulations but it seems that if it's originally configured as a pistol then it's fine. Although I cannot make a pistol, I would buy it from someone who originally configured it as a pistol (from a lower) and then switched it to a rifle (29+" OAL and a stock) before they sold it to me. Does the SBR 'rifle' classification go based on how I bought it or based on the original configuration of the original owner?

Yes if it is sold as a complete rifle to you, you as the new owner bought a rifle receiver not a pistol receiver that was built in to a rifle. Its based on what the 4473 says it is.

Bare stripped lower is regulated, aka 77r, you dont need a hql to buy it, but you do need to be 21 or older.

 

[rseymorejr]

But isn't a lower receiver regulated? For example I cannot buy a lower without an HQL and until I'm 21. Does that classification go away permanently once it's part of a complete rifle?

I'm aware of the SBR regulations but it seems that if it's originally configured as a pistol then it's fine. Although I cannot make a pistol, I would buy it from someone who originally configured it as a pistol (from a lower) and then switched it to a rifle (29+" OAL and a stock) before they sold it to me. Does the SBR 'rifle' classification go based on how I bought it or based on the original configuration of the original owner?

You don't need an HQL to buy a stripped lower. There is the 77R and 7 day wait.
If it's transfered as "other" it can be built as a pistol and then be changed to rifle and back to pistol as you wish.
If it's buit as a rifle first it can never be changed into a pistol.
You can bulid any of them as a SBR at any time (after jumping through all the ATF hoops)
As far as I know you'd need to be 21 to go the pistol or SBR route. A normal rifle, HBAR, you should be good to go.
Also I'm not sure if you need to be 21 to buy a stripped lower or not??
The 29" OAL applies to SBR only

 

[BigMac]

Yes if it is sold as a complete rifle to you, you as the new owner bought a rifle receiver not a pistol receiver that was built in to a rifle. Its based on what the 4473 says it is.

Bare stripped lower is regulated, aka 77r, you dont need a hql to buy it, but you do need to be 21 or older.

Thanks for mentioning the 4473, makes more sense to me now. The form 4473 is only required when transferring through an FFL, in most states that don't require an FFL for private sale you wouldn't need a 4473 and then it would still be considered a pistol? Meaning it goes based on the most recent 4473 and because in MD it's required for every purchase it would be reconsidered as a rifle?

Regarding the lower, I'm still not understanding why it's not an issue. From what I've seen, it doesn't matter whether the lower is stripped or complete, either way if it's not paired with an upper it's regulated. Regulated firearms need a 77r and can't be possessed by anyone under 21. So when I take apart an ar, I have a lower, which is a regulated firearm, and I shouldn't be allowed to possess it.
I must be missing something about the form 77r or what constitutes 'regulated firearms', if someone could point out where my logic is going wrong it would be much appreciated.

Also, just want to clarify about the 29" thing.

If you buy it as a rifle, it is a rifle, and cannot be converted into a pistol under federal law, only an SBR (not less than 29" OAL).

The 29" OAL applies to SBR only

I understood that under 26" inches is an SBR, a federal thing, and below 29" is not an SBR but is considered an "assault weapon" by MD state. Am I correct about this?

 

[rseymorejr]

I understood that under 26" inches is an SBR, a federal thing, and below 29" is not an SBR but is considered an "assault weapon" by MD state. Am I correct about this?

Federally a rifle with a barrel length less than 16" is a SBR and a SBR needs to be 29" OAL to be legal in Maryland

 

[scottyfz6]

Thanks for mentioning the 4473, makes more sense to me now. The form 4473 is only required when transferring through an FFL, in most states that don't require an FFL for private sale you wouldn't need a 4473 and then it would still be considered a pistol? Meaning it goes based on the most recent 4473 and because in MD it's required for every purchase it would be reconsidered as a rifle?

Regarding the lower, I'm still not understanding why it's not an issue. From what I've seen, it doesn't matter whether the lower is stripped or complete, either way if it's not paired with an upper it's regulated. Regulated firearms need a 77r and can't be possessed by anyone under 21. So when I take apart an ar, I have a lower, which is a regulated firearm, and I shouldn't be allowed to possess it.
I must be missing something about the form 77r or what constitutes 'regulated firearms', if someone could point out where my logic is going wrong it would be much appreciated.

Also, just want to clarify about the 29" thing.



I understood that under 26" inches is an SBR, a federal thing, and below 29" is not an SBR but is considered an "assault weapon" by MD state. Am I correct about this?

In maryland every transfer (except family) has to go thru a ffl, except pistols which can be done at a state police barracks. So you cant do that as a loop hole, it would go off the 4473 that YOU do.

Taking apart for cleaning and general storage does not suddenly change how the law applies. That would be like saying you just took the barrel off your shotgun to clean it, now it does not have a barrel over 18 inches, aka a SBS. Incidental temporary disassembly does not effect the law, its kind of understood it has to be taken apart for cleaning. Now that does not mean you want to throw the lower in your car and drive around with out the upper, or buy a complete rifle and then sell the upper and not have one that fits on it ( a legal rifle ). Again temporary for cleaning your fine.

firearm lengths by fed law
under 26 no stock pistol (designed to be fired by one hand no vert grips allowed )
over 26 no stock its a firearm ( vert grips allowed )
any length with a stock its a sbr if the barrel is under 16 and made from a rifle
any length with a stock that is under 26 inches even if the barrel is 16 its a sbr

Maryland law
under 26 no stock pistol
over 26 no stock firearm
over 29 with a stock and barrel less than 16, its a sbr ( has to be a legal model )
under 29 with a stock and the barrel is less than 16 you had to have owned prior to 2013 iirc its ok
under 29 with a stock and the barrel is less than 16, if you did not own it before 2013 iirc its a "copy cat" weapon and its banned by maryland law as an AW.

this is the small list, obviously I cant compress every fed or state law in to one post. but it covers the basics. stripped receivers even normal pistols ones transfer as others

 

[dblas]

But isn't a lower receiver regulated? For example I cannot buy a lower without an HQL and until I'm 21. Does that classification go away permanently once it's part of a complete rifle?

A lower receiver is ONLY regulated on it's own, if it is a part of an assembled rifle it is cash and carry. Stop trying to make everything harder than it is.

I'm aware of the SBR regulations but it seems that if it's originally configured as a pistol then it's fine. Although I cannot make a pistol, I would buy it from someone who originally configured it as a pistol (from a lower) and then switched it to a rifle (29+" OAL and a stock) before they sold it to me. Does the SBR 'rifle' classification go based on how I bought it or based on the original configuration of the original owner?

If you bought it as a rifle, it doesn't matter under federal law what it was before, you bought it as a RIFLE and all state and federal laws apply. All state and federal laws apply to the firearm as transferred, not as originally purchased. If the original owner bought it as a pistol, and then converted to a rifle, and sold it as a rifle, then you have purchased a rifle, full stop.

 

[dblas]

Yes if it is sold as a complete rifle to you, you as the new owner bought a rifle receiver not a pistol receiver that was built in to a rifle. Its based on what the 4473 says it is.

NO, a lower receiver sold as a complete rifle is NOT regulated nor registered.
People need to stop with the "registration" BS.

Bare stripped lower is regulated, aka 77r, you dont need a hql to buy it, but you do need to be 21 or older.

Correct

 

[dblas]

Thanks for mentioning the 4473, makes more sense to me now. The form 4473 is only required when transferring through an FFL, in most states that don't require an FFL for private sale you wouldn't need a 4473 and then it would still be considered a pistol? Meaning it goes based on the most recent 4473 and because in MD it's required for every purchase it would be reconsidered as a rifle?

You are a Maryland resident, all pertinent state and federal laws apply. You cannot do a private transfer of ANY firearm in any state but the one you reside in. If you go to WV and want to buy Joe Bob's AR, you need to go to an FFL in either WV or MD and do the transfer. The rifle also needs to be legal in both states.

Regarding the lower, I'm still not understanding why it's not an issue. From what I've seen, it doesn't matter whether the lower is stripped or complete, either way if it's not paired with an upper it's regulated.

Regulated firearms in Maryland are handguns or receivers that can be made into a handgun, full stop. If an upper is attached to a lower receiver, it is no longer able to be legally be changed to a pistol and is not regulated in Maryland.

Regulated firearms need a 77r and can't be possessed by anyone under 21. So when I take apart an ar, I have a lower, which is a regulated firearm, and I shouldn't be allowed to possess it.

No, you have the lower receiver of a rifle, NOT a regulated firearm.

I must be missing something about the form 77r or what constitutes 'regulated firearms', if someone could point out where my logic is going wrong it would be much appreciated.

Nothing to point to other than a regulated firearm in Maryland is handgun related.

Also, just want to clarify about the 29" thing.



I understood that under 26" inches is an SBR, a federal thing, and below 29" is not an SBR but is considered an "assault weapon" by MD state. Am I correct about this?

How do you make an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle) without shortening the barrel? You don't.
You can have any rifle you want, in the free states, that is 26" and not be an SBR as long as the barrel is 16" or longer.
You can have any rifle you want, in Maryland, that is 29" and not be an SBR as long as the barrel is 16".
In both cases you do not have an SBR. Once you remove 1/4" and make the barrel less than 16" you have made an SBR regardless of the OAL.
Federal OAL is indeed 26", Maryland's OAL is indeed 29".

 

[scottyfz6]

NO, a lower receiver sold as a complete rifle is NOT regulated nor registered.
People need to stop with the "registration" BS.

Where did I say registration? I said 4473, if purchased as a complete rifle, the receiver under federal is a rifle. The 4473 will say rifle, meaning you cant make a pistol from it later.

 

[dblas]

Where did I say registration? I said 4473, if purchased as a complete rifle, the receiver under federal is a rifle. The 4473 will say rifle, meaning you cant make a pistol from it later.

Sorry Scotty, that wasn't directed at you, just a general comment for this, and other threads that have popped up concentrating on "registration"

 

[BigMac]

You are a Maryland resident, all pertinent state and federal laws apply. You cannot do a private transfer of ANY firearm in any state but the one you reside in. If you go to WV and want to buy Joe Bob's AR, you need to go to an FFL in either WV or MD and do the transfer. The rifle also needs to be legal in both states.

I'm not trying to buy out of state, I was just posing a hypothetical to understand if it's related to the 4473 and applies only where a 4473 is required or it's based on the transfer regardless of whether there was any paperwork, which you addressed clearly:

If you bought it as a rifle, it doesn't matter under federal law what it was before, you bought it as a RIFLE and all state and federal laws apply. All state and federal laws apply to the firearm as transferred, not as originally purchased. If the original owner bought it as a pistol, and then converted to a rifle, and sold it as a rifle, then you have purchased a rifle, full stop.

Regulated firearms in Maryland are handguns or receivers that can be made into a handgun, full stop. If an upper is attached to a lower receiver, it is no longer able to be legally be changed to a pistol and is not regulated in Maryland.

Thanks for clarifying this, I didn't realize that it's only regulated because of the ability to be made into a handgun which goes away once it's a rifle. Does this mean that I could buy a used lower receiver under 21 and without a 77r if it was previously a rifle? Or if it's transferred would it legally be 'new' and able to be made into a pistol?

Federally a rifle with a barrel length less than 16" is a SBR and a SBR needs to be 29" OAL to be legal in Maryland

The fact that it's an SBR is irrelevant though. A rifle with a 16" barrel and 26" oal isn't an SBR but is still banned. Or does SBR come into play somewhere?

 

[outrider58]

If you're 18 years of age, you can buy an AR15 rifle.

You can not buy an AR15 lower receiver until you are 21.

You can not buy an AR15 pistol until you are 21.

 

[scottyfz6]

Does this mean that I could buy a used lower receiver under 21 and without a 77r if it was previously a rifle? Or if it's transferred would it legally be 'new' and able to be made into a pistol?

No it has to be rifle when you buy it, and that means is a rifle for life. It has to be a complete rifle when you buy it.

If some takes it apart and sells the lower only, its regulated. No matter what it was when they bought it.

We have said many times. It only matters what it is when YOU buy it, and being under 21 it has to be a complete rifle. That means its a rifle for life.

I dont mean to sound rude, but your not listening ( reading ). Its as simple as what I just said above. It only matters what it is when YOU buy it, and being under 21 it has to be a complete rifle. That means as simple as you HAVE to buy it as a COMPLETE RIFLE, and it has to stay like that for as long as you own it. You can strip it back to just a lower, but you can only put it back together as rifle. At some point if you sell just the lower, for the next person they buy it as a lower, but AGAIN YOU BOUGHT IT AS A COMPLETE RIFLE so it has to be a rifle.

Disclaimer and I could be wrong. The way I read the fed law ( and the encore case ) if you buy a complete factory rifle, the lower by fed law is always a rifle. If you strip it and sell it as a lower, you are breaking federal law. You created what was once a rifle to in to what can be a pistol. I know shops do this, and I think its illegal but I am not the one doing it. Again I could be wrong, but rifle first, always a rifle even after resale even stripped. The only people who can make a pistol or receiver for sale is a licensed manufacturer and converting a rifle lower to a pistol/receiver is no no if done by you.

 

[outrider58]

Thanks for clarifying this, I didn't realize that it's only regulated because of the ability to be made into a handgun which goes away once it's a rifle. Does this mean that I could buy a used lower receiver under 21 and without a 77r if it was previously a rifle? Or if it's transferred would it legally be 'new' and able to be made into a pistol?

They are NOT regulated because they can be built into pistols. They are regulated because they can be built into a banned weapon. The recording of the purchase(erroneously referred to as 'registering') gives the state a date and age of the serialized lower. It's the only way the state can tell if it was built into an illegal configuration.

 

[BigMac]

No it has to be rifle when you buy it, and that means is a rifle for life. It has to be a complete rifle when you buy it.

If some takes it apart and sells the lower only, its regulated. No matter what it was when they bought it.

We have said many times. It only matters what it is when YOU buy it, and being under 21 it has to be a complete rifle. That means its a rifle for life.

I dont mean to sound rude, but your not listening ( reading ). Its as simple as what I just said above. It only matters what it is when YOU buy it, and being under 21 it has to be a complete rifle. That means as simple as you HAVE to buy it as a COMPLETE RIFLE, and it has to stay like that for as long as you own it. You can strip it back to just a lower, but you can only put it back together as rifle. At some point if you sell just the lower, for the next person they buy it as a lower, but AGAIN YOU BOUGHT IT AS A COMPLETE RIFLE so it has to be a rifle.

Disclaimer and I could be wrong. The way I read the fed law ( and the encore case ) if you buy a complete factory rifle, the lower by fed law is always a rifle. If you strip it and sell it as a lower, you are breaking federal law. You created what was once a rifle to in to what can be a pistol. I know shops do this, and I think its illegal but I am not the one doing it. Again I could be wrong, but rifle first, always a rifle even after resale even stripped. The only people who can make a pistol or receiver for sale is a licensed manufacturer and converting a rifle lower to a pistol/receiver is no no if done by you.

I understand that I can only buy a complete rifle, I'm just trying to get which specific laws affect the legal classification of firearms, beyond my own circumstances.
When we say that lowers are regulated, is that because they can physically be made into handguns, or only if they can legally be made into handguns?

Regulated firearms in Maryland are handguns or receivers that can be made into a handgun, full stop. If an upper is attached to a lower receiver, it is no longer able to be legally be changed to a pistol and is not regulated in Maryland.

Seems pretty straightforward that it's only regulated for what it could legally be made into, the fact that someone could turn it into whatever they please doesn't change the fact that it will always legally be a rifle, and therefore it is unregulated.

If some takes it apart and sells the lower only, its regulated. No matter what it was when they bought it.

The way I read the fed law ( and the encore case ) if you buy a complete factory rifle, the lower by fed law is always a rifle. If you strip it and sell it as a lower, you are breaking federal law.

If we only care about what it could legally be made into, since federal law prohibits making such a lower into a pistol, why is it regulated?!

 

[scottyfz6]

When we say that lowers are regulated, is that because they can physically be made into handguns, or only if they can legally be made into handguns?

only if legally. if illegally then you broke different laws

Seems pretty straightforward that it's only regulated for what it could legally be made into, the fact that someone could turn it into whatever they please doesn't change the fact that it will always legally be a rifle, and therefore it is unregulated.


If we only care about what it could legally be made into, since federal law prohibits making such a lower into a pistol, why is it regulated?!

because a stripped lower federally is an other or receiver, which under fed law can be made in to a pistol, rifle, shotgun etc. but if lets say in pa an 18 yo bought a stripped lower and made it in to a pistol he MAY have broken fed law because he is under 21. Notice i said may, because under fed law i think 18-20 may own but not buy a handgun from a ffl. So it maybe legal for a 18 yo to make a pistol under fed law, states can restrict that.

under maryland law it can be made in to a pistol, which in maryland a 18-20 can not own a pistol. So they force you be 21 via the 77r paperwork and laws.

to your statement "could turn it in to what ever" maryland says it is regulated. This is a situation where your welcome to be the trial case and see if you can out lawyer the state of maryland.

sometimes you just need to sit your ass down and shake your head at stupidity from politicians. Also just because fed law says its illegal does not mean maryland cant have a law that says its illegal as well, aka regulated

 

[dblas]

I'm not trying to buy out of state, I was just posing a hypothetical to understand if it's related to the 4473 and applies only where a 4473 is required or it's based on the transfer regardless of whether there was any paperwork, which you addressed clearly:

Glad we got that straight.

Thanks for clarifying this, I didn't realize that it's only regulated because of the ability to be made into a handgun which goes away once it's a rifle. Does this mean that I could buy a used lower receiver under 21 and without a 77r if it was previously a rifle? Or if it's transferred would it legally be 'new' and able to be made into a pistol?

If you are talking a private sale of the lower, you should be good, but it depends on the FFL since a 4473 is required and how they conduct the transfer.

The fact that it's an SBR is irrelevant though. A rifle with a 16" barrel and 26" oal isn't an SBR but is still banned. Or does SBR come into play somewhere?

MD law assumes that any rifle under 29" has a barrel of less than 16", which as we have stated, is not the case in all forms. Don't try to understand it, it's Maryland.