Precision 223

[davsco]

I was a huge fan of the BH Blue box 68gr before I began reloading. I still have a half a case stashed around here somewhere.

for some reason the 68s didn't shoot as well for me.

 

[dist1646]

View attachment 336436

Crappy cell phone pic. This is 10 shots @ 200yds. Shot the 5 on the right, made an adjustment, then the 5 on the left. AR match rifle w/ irons, prone w/ sling. For reference, the "X" ring is 1 7/8" diameter. AR's can be very accurate!

77gr. Sierra
23.5gr N140

 

[GunBum]

My Savage 10FP does quite well with LC brass, CCI SR primers (or even Win SRP), H322, and 69 SMK’s. By quite well, I mean 1/2” outside edge to outside edge groups at 100m. The gun is boringly accurate with that load. With crap 62 grain or 55 grain bulk stuff and WIN748 loaded through the Dillon, she does sub MOA with ease. The gun has a 1:9 twist barrel, so the 69 SMK is as heavy as she tolerates.

My TC contender likes the same brass, powder (H322), and primers, but prefers 52 SMK’s. In pistol form with a 14” barrel, she does sub MOA.

I have an AR with a 20” Krieger barrel that is almost as accurate as the Savage, and will shoot the exact same loads with a slight loss of precision over the bolt action rifle. That’s the gun I’ve been taking Prairie Dog hunting for over 20 years, and no one has ever complained about not being able to take 300m shots on dogs.

If you have a decent barrel, and you can’t handload .223 or 5.55 to shoot sub MOA, you are probably a bad shot. It probably isn’t the gun or ammo. It’s you.

 

[redsandman6]

My personal experience is accuracy comes from the following order:
1) Shooter, your trigger discipline, breath, timing, how you hold the rifle.
2) Bench Setup (front and rear bags set up)
3) Barrel quality
4) Trigger
5) Cartridge
a) Bullet quality
b) Powder load development
c) Consistency of loading depth
d) Bullet seating position
e) Case consistency
f) Primer quality (standard vs bench rest)

I did not put the glass in there but yea, you need a good scope that holds zero, duh. Dont' expect good consistency with a Simmons scope on there. But no point putting a $500+ scope on a $95 barrel gun.

I"m sure everyone has their opinion on the matter and will take my list and want to swap things around.

I justify my list for shooter being #1 because I have an AR with Criterion barrel, and 69gr SMK and my tuned load bla bla bla, I get sub MOA on a bad day and .5MOA on a good day. I expect variation. Give it to a new shooter and he/she is planting 2 MOA groups.

I justify the bench set up because if you don't have good front and rear setup, you won't be getting 1MOA no matter how good the gun is unless you are godlike in your hold.

I justify Barrel quality being next. I have been LUCKY with one AR barrel that got sub MOA but most of them are not tight and even with everything else consistent, many are around 1MOA but most are 1-2MOA. It pays to splurge on a $200-$300+ barrel at least from my limited experience.

Trigger: pays to have a 2 stage light trigger. geissele is what I like. It also really shows when you are shooting offhand but its really hard IMO to go sub MOA from the bench w/o a light crisp trigger.

Cartridge. No point in starting on the cartridge reloading till you have all of the above IMO. Sure, you can put in some Federal UMC crap bullets and say oh, bullets make a huge difference compared to Trigger, but I won't argue that. One can measure the above list (shooter, barrel, bench setup etc) by just getting a box of Federal Gold Metal Match and seeing what that does. I can't recall who suggested this to evaluate guns/barrle (Ed Shell?) but its been working for me. Basically, what I have found is that I use that as a target to load develop. I can in the 2 cases I used Fed GMM, developed about 20% smaller groups than the GMM. As he put it, if it does not shoot good with those, it likely may not shoot well with your reloads.

I ranked Bullet quality cause you won't get tight groups if the bullet is crap. Matching bullet weight to the twist and getting stuff that is consistent. For me, spending $ on anything more expensive than Sierra Match Kings is a waste cause I am not good enough to see the difference or all the other things I do does not change the outcome. but I sure can tell the difference than say plinking bullets and SMKs.

For load development if I want the best accuracy, I use OCW method.
http://www.ocwreloading.com/

If I want tight groups, I'll sort my brass and make sure they are all trimmed the same, I will inspect the OAL and reject anything off by more than .005". (When I was inspecting to .003" and took the rejects, the groups were just as tight). YMMV cause I'm sure there are people good enough or shoot at further distances where they keep it tighter than that.

I put primer quality last only cause I have only used bench rest primers once. Had only 100 and did not see anything significant. and I'm not to that point anyway. Again, YMMV.

Again, I'm not a precision bench rest shooter and you will get some guys saying you need to do ABC... XYZ. But to me, you need to start somewhere and work your way down at the beginning. Don't fret about the things that will get you .1 MOA more accurate till you take care of the stuff that gets you 1MOA more accurate.

Currently, my best set up using Criterion Barrel, Geissele trigger and reloads with 69SMK and IMR8208XBR powder

i agree with all of this. the only thing i would add is velocity is important as well. you could have a good grouping in a lower velocity which is good at shorter ranges but when you start shooting longer ranges the decrease in veloctity is not going to be good.

to me reloading is trying to be the most consistent as possible. so you can correctly predict or have a relative repeatability if you do your job right behind the barrel

the other way to test is to try to find a velocity node then try to narrow down the exact weight in a ladder load

http://www.65guys.com/10-round-load-development-ladder-test/

there is so much out there on ladder loads

 

[Doco Overboard]

View attachment 336436

Crappy cell phone pic. This is 10 shots @ 200yds. Shot the 5 on the right, made an adjustment, then the 5 on the left. AR match rifle w/ irons, prone w/ sling. For reference, the "X" ring is 1 7/8" diameter. AR's can be very accurate!

77gr. Sierra
23.5gr N140

What is that MR 52 target?
Pretty dam good if you ask me.
Only one I saw shot with a sling. The rest dont mean much to me.

 

[deerassassin22]

Not sure if it was mentioned I sort by weight and ogive length and the. Use a Hornady headspace gage to find your lands and then back off a little from their and try different seating depths I also sort primer by weight on my fax 120i same with my powder to within a kernel

 

[lazarus]

I was at the Chantilly gun show once and chatting with a guy selling uppers who proudly told me, "I got guys getting half inch groups at 200 yards with my uppers!" (he may have actually said 300 yards - 200 sounds more plausible though.)

I was like, ORLY!!!!!!!????

I didn't have the heart to tell him that even 1/2" groups with a precision bolt gun at that distance with a .223 would be a major achievement.

I do it all the time. I walk over 200yds and then shoot a 1/2 inch group on the target.

 

[Melnic]

i agree with all of this. the only thing i would add is velocity is important as well. you could have a good grouping in a lower velocity which is good at shorter ranges but when you start shooting longer ranges the decrease in veloctity is not going to be good.

to me reloading is trying to be the most consistent as possible. so you can correctly predict or have a relative repeatability if you do your job right behind the barrel

the other way to test is to try to find a velocity node then try to narrow down the exact weight in a ladder load

http://www.65guys.com/10-round-load-development-ladder-test/

there is so much out there on ladder loads

Very interesting and definitely worth a try! Thanks for posting.
Definitely worth using with a magnetospeed (which I don't have but now have a reason to try cause I have a friend who has one)

 

[Viper21773]

View attachment 336436

Crappy cell phone pic. This is 10 shots @ 200yds. Shot the 5 on the right, made an adjustment, then the 5 on the left. AR match rifle w/ irons, prone w/ sling. For reference, the "X" ring is 1 7/8" diameter. AR's can be very accurate!

77gr. Sierra
23.5gr N140

Very nice!
Similar to my pet load
77 SMK
Lake City Cases
Fed 205 Primer
24.1 N-140
Loaded to max length that will fit mag

Rifle is a Fulton Armory Predator w/Krieger 7.7 and Zeiss glass

 

[byf43]

I got REALLY lucky, when I bought my first AR. A Colt R6601 Sporter Match Target (pre-Klinton Ban).

20" 1:7 twist.

Stumbled onto a load that has been accurate, no, VERY accurate, in every rifle that it's been shot in. My AR(s) and several others, and some bolt guns, too.
(One guy at my sportsman's club needed a rifle to shoot a High Power Rifle Match, and I loaned him my rifle and ammo. He won the match with it! The following month, he had his own R6601, and was using that same load!)


Winchester or Federal brass. Trimmed to 1.750"
H-335 powder. 23.0 grains.
Sierra 69 gr BTHP MatchKing bullets.
Federal 205M primers.

This is the group fired at 100 yards, that a very good friend was spotting for me, and shouted, "CEASE FIRE, MFr!!!! Don't screw up this group!"

It's only three shots, but, the group size is 5/16" at 100 yards.
Box stock rifle (at the time). Open sights.
I promise you.......... my eyesight is NOWHERE as good as it was, when this was shot, or when I shot High Power. (BTW, I ran the club's High Power Rifle Program, for 12 years.)
Group shot from an Uncle Bud's "Bulls Bag" with a leather 'bunny ear' rear bag.

 

[Park ranger]

What is that MR 52 target?
Pretty dam good if you ask me.
Only one I saw shot with a sling. The rest dont mean much to me.

That is a 600 yard nra high-power target reduced for 200 yards. That DR means something. Not too many of us here that has earned that.

 

[Doco Overboard]

That is a 600 yard nra high-power target reduced for 200 yards. That DR means something. Not too many of us here that has earned that.

Even less around that can see .003 difference at one foot (1 moA equivalent) or hold less than that at 100 yds. without error.
Which is about the best the un-aided human eye can do in perfect light conditions.
I knew what kind of target it was. The one that doesn't work with training wheels.
And no, no one will ever see me post one up like that, but Ill keep trying till Im done.

 

[Biggfoot44]

" Extreme Accuracy " and ' Extremely Accurate Ammunition " are both Rabbit Holes .

To put finite parameters , I'll throw out a benchmark , ie MOA aka 1.0 in @ 100 yds .

Can MOA or better ammunition be loaded with the components in first post , using basic equipment ? Absolutely ! I've done it .

Can a totally stock, out of the box AR , with iron sights , shoot MOA with MOA capable ammo ? Yes ! My 1994 Sportster ( Not HBAR ) will .

The basic brass prep with reasonable care , and visual inspections vs full bogie ,anal retentive , kitchen sink brass prep was a constant friendly debate with my Late Shooting & Handloading Partner #1 . And to be honest , we were probably Both Right

If I had blueprinted the flash holes , neckturned , and tested concencricity would my 0.95 MOA load been capable of 0.85 MOA ? Maybe . Or 0.95 MOA could have been limited by the rifle , my technique ,my eyes ,or my finger .

Any way , I met my goal , and declared Victory , for totally stock Gov't Profile AR to shoot sub MOA with irons .

 

[dist1646]

What is that MR 52 target?
Pretty dam good if you ask me.
Only one I saw shot with a sling. The rest dont mean much to me.

Yes, it's the MR 52 target.

Very nice!
Similar to my pet load
77 SMK
Lake City Cases
Fed 205 Primer
24.1 N-140
Loaded to max length that will fit mag

Rifle is a Fulton Armory Predator w/Krieger 7.7 and Zeiss glass

Tried that load years ago and saw pressure signs. Newer batches of N140 seem to be good to go with 24 gr.

 

[85MikeTPI]

To follow-up, we shot two different rifles, two different shooters, 4 factory match versions, 4 handloads, and we found the most accurate load to be the hand loaded 75gr Hornady Match rounds. I grabbed 500 more to try and narrow down a powder load using OCW and/or 10-round ladder methods, then look for a node and then start filling ammo boxes..

 

[Doco Overboard]

Hey, here's something else to consider with a semi auto rifle. And could be a determining factor for an accuracy based rig. 4-2, 1 moa whatever.

Chamber headspace/cartridge headspace.
I thought I would mention it becuase I haven't read it here yet and not sure I would.

Some semi auto rifles with poorly cut or not as well as could have been formed chambers are subject to the cartridge HS being effectively resized due to the operation of the mechanism.
Add in shoulders that dont agree with the head gap and something may be changing. Maybe very small and randomly occurring but a possibility none the less.
The point is, it's random and often rarely ever checked before the cartridge is fired.

Simply by the inertia/forces of the action spring acting on the case as it is being chambered.
Its one of the reasons bolt guns are considered to have an accuracy advantage over reciprocating actions. The cartridge particularly one that is long in a semi is more predictable to be not affected to the same degree becuase of the slower closing of the bolt in a manually operated rifle.

But, when a rapidly closed bolt is worked hard and quickly, it still happens none the less.
Try it see for yourself next time your working your rifle. All you need is a caliper and a Stoney point gauge that you can often detect it happening.

 

[steves1911]

To follow-up, we shot two different rifles, two different shooters, 4 factory match versions, 4 handloads, and we found the most accurate load to be the hand loaded 75gr Hornady Match rounds. I grabbed 500 more to try and narrow down a powder load using OCW and/or 10-round ladder methods, then look for a node and then start filling ammo boxes..

Varget or rl15?

 

[85MikeTPI]

Varget or rl15?

The initial tests were with Benchmark. As I'm running out of it, I will switch to Varget or TAC.

 

[steves1911]

The initial tests were with Benchmark. As I'm running out of it, I will switch to Varget or TAC.

Good to now it worked well. I have used the 75gr hdy bthp for several years now its a great bullet. It works well on game too. It used to be factory loaded in the tap line not sure if it still is or not.

 

[85MikeTPI]

Chamber headspace/cartridge headspace.
I thought I would mention it becuase I haven't read it here yet and not sure I would.

It’s a concern, but not something we can change. We are using two gauged rifles and one definitely shoots better than the other, but they seem to be consistently different. So we may reach a diminishing rate of return on the loads, but we want to try. Thanks