Pistol grip only shotguns legal in MD?

[clandestine]

Are you saying that once you put the buttstock on an 'other' PG [shotgun] that you can't put the PG back on and go back to 'other'?

I didn't say that. I said its no longer an "other" firearm once a stock is attached. You can put a pistol grip on a shotgun as long as the OAL is 26" and the barrel is 18" unless you want to go NFA. For an "other" the barrel can be any length as long as the OAL is 26"+ unless you want to go NFA.


Shotguns are also 18+ for FFL purchase where Other Firearms are 21+ from a FFL.

 

[NateIU10]

Are you sure the 590 does not have a stock in the box? If it does its not an "other", its a combo gun and classified as a shotgun.

What you want is legal for you to do. The shop likely wont do it though as most don't understand this technicality and it will raise flags and cause you difficulty.

You can legally make an other a shotgun, but you cant go back to "other" once you do it legally.

Has there been further ATF guidance on that issue (PGO installed, stock in box)? The only thing I have ever read about it was an ATF Newsletter from 2009. http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2009-11.pdf .

The newletter talked about firearms with the PGO attached, or equipped in liu of a buttstock. I'm just not quite sure how inclusion in the box makes the firearm meet the Shotgun definition, and not an Other on the 4473.

 

[clandestine]

Has there been further AT guidance on that issue (PGO installed, stock in box)? The only thing I have ever read about it was an ATF Newsletter from 2009. http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2009-11.pdf .

The newletter talked about firearms with the PGO attached, or equipped in liu of a buttstock. I'm just not quite sure how inclusion in the box makes the firearm meet the Shotgun definition, and not an Other on the 4473.

The boxes are marked differently from the MFG what I recall. A Combo 870 or stocked 870 will say shotgun on the box, the "Other" FPGO's dont. There was also a ruling I read when I first educated myself this odd classification of firearm.

How the MFG classifies the firearm is important it seems if your going to get into the under 18" barrel territory only.

 

[Ab_Normal]

I didn't say that. I said its no longer an "other" firearm once a stock is attached. You can put a pistol grip on a shotgun as long as the OAL is 26" and the barrel is 18" unless you want to go NFA. For an "other" the barrel can be any length as long as the OAL is 26"+ unless you want to go NFA.


Shotguns are also 18+ for FFL purchase where Other Firearms are 21+ from a FFL.

Ok, I was just trying to clarify as far as switching back and forth. The way I read it looked like once the stock was attached and no longer configured as an 'other' it couldn't go back to to an 'other' at a later time.

As I understand it an 'other' can have any barrel length as long as the over all length is 26" or longer. If you want to put a buttstock on that 'other' the barrel would have to be permanently altered or switched out to one that is at least 18" BEFORE the buttstock is attached if the barrel was less than 18" to start with. Then if you wanted to convert it back to a PG 'other' the stock should be removed first and replaced with the PG BEFORE putting a barrel less than 18" back on the receiver.

 

[l730dc]

You can buy a pistol grip pump at 18

 

[NateIU10]

Ok, I was just trying to clarify as far as switching back and forth. The way I read it looked like once the stock was attached and no longer configured as an 'other' it couldn't go back to to an 'other' at a later time.

As I understand it an 'other' can have any barrel length as long as the over all length is 26" or longer. If you want to put a buttstock on that 'other' the barrel would have to be permanently altered or switched out to one that is at least 18" BEFORE the buttstock is attached if the barrel was less than 18" to start with. Then if you wanted to convert it back to a PG 'other' the stock should be removed first and replaced with the PG BEFORE putting a barrel less than 18" back on the receiver.

Once you attach the stock, you have made a shotgun under the federal definition. Removal of the stock would then be the making of a firearm from a shotgun, and have the OAL and barrel length restrictions. Once you make it a shotgun, you cannot return it to Other status. If you leave the 18" barrel on the firearm, you can of course put a Pistol grip back on.

 

[clandestine]

You can buy a pistol grip pump at 18

Not from a FFL if its a factory PGO.

 

[NateIU10]

You can buy a pistol grip pump at 18

If you are referring to a pistol-gripped only shotgun-like firearm, that is incorrect. It is an Other firearm, and does not fall within the GCA of '68 exception for sale to those 18+ from a licensee. An other firearm, such as PGO shotgun-like firearms and stripped receivers must be purchased in your state of residence by persons 21+ if purchasing from a licensee.

 

[clandestine]

Nate if you want some documentation Ill try and snap some photos of the PGO label compared to a stocked model. I don't know when Ill be at the shop but I have to swing by and retrieve a computer for scott one day soon so I can fix it for him.

 

[NateIU10]

Nate if you want some documentation Ill try and snap some photos of the PGO label compared to a stocked model. I don't know when Ill be at the shop but I have to swing by and retrieve a computer for scott one day soon so I can fix it for him.

That would be awesome, and no rush. I may just end up sending FTB a letter and ask if they think it is an other. Do you have my email? If not, it's Nate @ StoufferLegal.com [remove the spaces].

 

[l730dc]

All I know is you can go to the store at the age of 18 and get a shotgun that has no stock and a pistol grip only .. it might not be true on factory new pgo's.. but regardless. . You can get a pistol grip shotgun at 18.. ive seen it done from ffls..

 

[clandestine]

All I know is you can go to the store at the age of 18 and get a shotgun that has no stock and a pistol grip only .. it might not be true on factory new pgo's.. but regardless. . You can get a pistol grip shotgun at 18.. ive seen it done from ffls..

And those FFLs are breaking federal law if its a factory pistol gripped firearm. So is the buyer.

Factory Pistol Grip 12 Gauge=21 or older

 

[l730dc]

I am guessing he is wanted a pgo factory new shotgun for a reason though (I have a feeling I know what this "project" is)

 

[Ab_Normal]

Once you attach the stock, you have made a shotgun under the federal definition. Removal of the stock would then be the making of a firearm from a shotgun, and have the OAL and barrel length restrictions. Once you make it a shotgun, you cannot return it to Other status. If you leave the 18" barrel on the firearm, you can of course put a Pistol grip back on.

I believe that is incorrect for the same reason you can legally take a pistol and configure it into a rifle and then back to a pistol again.

 

[l730dc]

I believe that is incorrect for the same reason you can legally take a pistol and configure it into a rifle and then back to a pistol again.

I was under the impression that if a reciever ever had a stock on it that it can no longer be a pistol ..

(Not an expert)

 

[NateIU10]

All I know is you can go to the store at the age of 18 and get a shotgun that has no stock and a pistol grip only .. it might not be true on factory new pgo's.. but regardless. . You can get a pistol grip shotgun at 18.. ive seen it done from ffls..

There are many FFLs that stay on top of the law, and have people employed that understand it. Those FFLs are in the minority. You would be correct that a non-factory folder fitted with a stock would fall within the definition of a Shotgun, and could be sold to a person 18+ (though if I were the FFL, I'd sell is with stock and let the end-user make that modification.)

Factory PGOs are where are the fun stuff can happen, though.

 

[l730dc]

There are many FFLs that stay on top of the law, and have people employed that understand it. Those FFLs are in the minority. You would be correct that a non-factory folder fitted with a stock would fall within the definition of a Shotgun, and could be sold to a person 18+ (though if I were the FFL, I'd sell is with stock and let the end-user make that modification.)

Factory PGOs are where are the fun stuff can happen, though.

Yes.. I seen the picture from the original thread... very sexy
Pgo 12ga is my first love.. I love them.. and the pic I seen DEFINATELY caught my attention.. beautiful!


ETA : it sucks md law threw a stick in the spokes.. it really does

 

[Ab_Normal]

I was under the impression that if a reciever ever had a stock on it that it can no longer be a pistol ..

(Not an expert)

That was the BGOS line of thinking for quite some time with nothing official to back it up. ATF clarified that it was NOT the case based on the legal definition.

 

[NateIU10]

The boxes are marked differently from the MFG what I recall. A Combo 870 or stocked 870 will say shotgun on the box, the "Other" FPGO's dont. There was also a ruling I read when I first educated myself this odd classification of firearm.

How the MFG classifies the firearm is important it seems if your going to get into the under 18" barrel territory only.

I believe that is incorrect for the same reason you can legally take a pistol and configure it into a rifle and then back to a pistol again.

I believe I found my answer to my first question and will (tentatively) agree with you Ab. I am far too tired to still be working/reading right now.

http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

This is why stock in box may matter:

The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled “rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). The inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). Id. at 513 n.6.

So, if you sell both barrels with the PGO installed shotgun with stock in the box, would that be ok? Do you even need both if it is assembled as an Other with 18"+ barrel and a stock? Wouldn't that still be an other?

 

[NateIU10]

All of this aside for a moment, do we know what gun store owner is telling people all PGO shotguns are banned now?