Daddyursus
Trusted Shellback
Oh honored,respected,all knowing friends here at C&R. Is the P-63 a listed C&R firearm? And does anyone have one and what's it like?
P-63
- Thread starter Daddyursus
- Start date
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mgbill
Active Member
Okay, I'll bite. What's a P-63? Be glad to look it up but need to know the maker's name.
CasualObserver
Who Observes the Observer
Are you referring to a FEG PA-63? If so, I don't think they are on the list, but if you can find one 50 years old or older, sure, its a C&R. I think they started making them in the late 50's or early 60's (maybe 63 from which it gets its designation... not sure).
Combloc
Stop Negassing me!!!!!
If you mean the PM63, they aren't being imported yet but, according to Pioneer Arms, they are ATF approved and will soon be on the way.....
http://www.pioneer-pac.com/pm63-c,prp1,5,2
http://www.pioneer-pac.com/pm63-c,prp1,5,2
+1 - yep wiki says late 50s
Daddyursus
Trusted Shellback
Sometimes...OK most times, my brain works faster than my fingers. You are correct sir, I am asking about the FEG PA-63
amoebicmagician
Samopal Goblin
I'm not sure if they are mentioned by name or not, but I have seen several people successfully acquire them via their C&R licenses.
I am not sure if the buyers just argued that "it's a makarov, and that's on the list" or what, but it ended with them getting the guns.
That said, the P-64 is on the C&R list due to it not being produced any more, and I feel like the PA-63 is in the same boat.
No makarov collection is complete without one.
They're fine guns, well built, sturdy, and accurate, but they beat up the hand and direct all the recoil directly into the web between thumb and forefinger.
in order of least to most pleasant to shoot, the Maks rank as follows
p-64, PA-63, P-83 Wanad, Makarov PM, Cz-82
All except the P-83 and one iteration of the Makarov PM are available via C&R
Just for the record, the CZ-82 is an amazing firearm. It fits the hand in a way that is hard to describe without using the word "euphoria"
I don't think the Czechs have ever made a bad gun, and the CZ-82 is no exception. The only reason some people don't like it is for two reasons- one is that the recoil springs are usually worn to shit by the time they reach the end user, many being stored with slide locked back, sometimes for years. The second is that in order to save money, the Czechs changed from the original 16 lbs recoil spring used in the prototype CZ-82, to the 14.5 lbs spring used in the production model. This was done so that the CZ-82 and CZ-83 (chambered in the weaker .380 ACP) could be outfitted with the same recoil spring.
I put 18 lbs recoil springs from wolff gunsprings in all of mine, and have not had ONE SINGLE MALFUNCTION in any of my guns, and I have shot many different types of ammo through them.
The only problem I've had was that Hornady critical defense ammo would not cycle in the guns- but this was a problem before the recoil spring change, it's the angle the round feeds into the chamber, doesn't mix well with the semi-spitzer design of the critical defense. I thought the extra recoil spring power would push past the resistance and get it into the chamber, but no dice.
That said, I have found Critical DUTY in 9mm Makarov to be supremely accurate and reliable in all the CZ-82s, which is weird because the geometry is similar. I guess it's just different enough that it's not a problem.
But yeah, Critical DUTY no problem, Critical DEFENSE maybe one round in 30 will feed into the chamber.
I am not sure if the buyers just argued that "it's a makarov, and that's on the list" or what, but it ended with them getting the guns.
That said, the P-64 is on the C&R list due to it not being produced any more, and I feel like the PA-63 is in the same boat.
No makarov collection is complete without one.
They're fine guns, well built, sturdy, and accurate, but they beat up the hand and direct all the recoil directly into the web between thumb and forefinger.
in order of least to most pleasant to shoot, the Maks rank as follows
p-64, PA-63, P-83 Wanad, Makarov PM, Cz-82
All except the P-83 and one iteration of the Makarov PM are available via C&R
Just for the record, the CZ-82 is an amazing firearm. It fits the hand in a way that is hard to describe without using the word "euphoria"
I don't think the Czechs have ever made a bad gun, and the CZ-82 is no exception. The only reason some people don't like it is for two reasons- one is that the recoil springs are usually worn to shit by the time they reach the end user, many being stored with slide locked back, sometimes for years. The second is that in order to save money, the Czechs changed from the original 16 lbs recoil spring used in the prototype CZ-82, to the 14.5 lbs spring used in the production model. This was done so that the CZ-82 and CZ-83 (chambered in the weaker .380 ACP) could be outfitted with the same recoil spring.
I put 18 lbs recoil springs from wolff gunsprings in all of mine, and have not had ONE SINGLE MALFUNCTION in any of my guns, and I have shot many different types of ammo through them.
The only problem I've had was that Hornady critical defense ammo would not cycle in the guns- but this was a problem before the recoil spring change, it's the angle the round feeds into the chamber, doesn't mix well with the semi-spitzer design of the critical defense. I thought the extra recoil spring power would push past the resistance and get it into the chamber, but no dice.
That said, I have found Critical DUTY in 9mm Makarov to be supremely accurate and reliable in all the CZ-82s, which is weird because the geometry is similar. I guess it's just different enough that it's not a problem.
But yeah, Critical DUTY no problem, Critical DEFENSE maybe one round in 30 will feed into the chamber.
Daddyursus
Trusted Shellback
Thanks for the great and informative response, Amoebicmagician. The P-64 was my find foray into the Mak world. The week before, my FFL grabbed me and showed me 2 guns an old client of his has on consignment. They were a Beretta Mod. 70S and a model IJ70-17A, both in .380 ACP.
Ever since my parents abused me as a child by spoiling me rotten, my decision skills have suffered. I bought both, which btw cost less than my M9.
NOTE to self: NEVER look at the classified on MDS. A 1966 P-64 with perfect bluing showed up and the guy was very local to me. I spend about 3 weeks a year in Latvia and have noticed that the men are of a smaller frame than Americans. Their hands like mine are about a 7-7.5. Only once did my little snap dragon P-64s hurt the web of my hand. I've found wearing shooting gloves and holding on tighter than normal gives me no pain what-so-ever. Yes, that right I said P-64 (S). While researching their going price, I found some later Models '74, '75 and '76 that collectively cost less than my M11-A1.
Next when discussing the fun I was having with the 9x18 Mak cartridge, a self righteous idiot let me shoot his CZ-82. I describe him as such because he had NO IDEA what monster he would release. CZ-82?? Yep !! Got'em and Wolff and Grips4U are added to my favorites list. Oh and if you search, you can find the CZ-83 in 9mm Mak. It also lives in my safe.
Any day now I expect my C&R FFL 03 in the mail, and I fear for my retirement fund
Ever since my parents abused me as a child by spoiling me rotten, my decision skills have suffered. I bought both, which btw cost less than my M9.
NOTE to self: NEVER look at the classified on MDS. A 1966 P-64 with perfect bluing showed up and the guy was very local to me. I spend about 3 weeks a year in Latvia and have noticed that the men are of a smaller frame than Americans. Their hands like mine are about a 7-7.5. Only once did my little snap dragon P-64s hurt the web of my hand. I've found wearing shooting gloves and holding on tighter than normal gives me no pain what-so-ever. Yes, that right I said P-64 (S). While researching their going price, I found some later Models '74, '75 and '76 that collectively cost less than my M11-A1.
Next when discussing the fun I was having with the 9x18 Mak cartridge, a self righteous idiot let me shoot his CZ-82. I describe him as such because he had NO IDEA what monster he would release. CZ-82?? Yep !! Got'em and Wolff and Grips4U are added to my favorites list. Oh and if you search, you can find the CZ-83 in 9mm Mak. It also lives in my safe.
Any day now I expect my C&R FFL 03 in the mail, and I fear for my retirement fund
CasualObserver
Who Observes the Observer
"Any day now I expect my C&R FFL 03 in the mail, and I fear for my retirement fund"
Draining your retirement fund is a very true statement. Just be sure to get very familiar with the laws as they impact a FFL 03. There is a big book of C&R eligible firearms put out by the ATF you can reference, plus anything 50 years old or older are automatically C&R. However, when dealing in Maryland, you must also follow state laws, so no ftf handgun purchases (ie you will need a FFL dealer of the MSP) and no transfers of high cap mags within the state borders even if they are C&R. If in doubt, ask the forum.... someone will likely know the answer.
Draining your retirement fund is a very true statement. Just be sure to get very familiar with the laws as they impact a FFL 03. There is a big book of C&R eligible firearms put out by the ATF you can reference, plus anything 50 years old or older are automatically C&R. However, when dealing in Maryland, you must also follow state laws, so no ftf handgun purchases (ie you will need a FFL dealer of the MSP) and no transfers of high cap mags within the state borders even if they are C&R. If in doubt, ask the forum.... someone will likely know the answer.
mitchugh
Active Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the PM63 would be a similar situation as the PPS-43 where in it's original configuration, yes it is old enough to be C&R but in the configuration they will be in when imported into the US they will technically be a modern handgun, ie not C&R eligible. However if they are able to reconfigure the PM 63's original receiver I guess that would be a different story.
From Pioneer Arms site:
"Pioneer Arms together with, I.O. Inc., has redesigned this historical firearm to shoot from a closed bolt position. This firearm is an ATF approved pistol. The stock has no function and is permanently fixed in its folded closed position."
From Pioneer Arms site:
"Pioneer Arms together with, I.O. Inc., has redesigned this historical firearm to shoot from a closed bolt position. This firearm is an ATF approved pistol. The stock has no function and is permanently fixed in its folded closed position."
amoebicmagician
Samopal Goblin
yeah, it's an iffy proposition when a gun is modified in any way.
There were a whole bunch of M57 tokarevs that PW arms in Redmond WA had replaced the shot out barrels on with new chrome lined 9mm barrels- and because of this they could not be sold as C&R. That said, what they ended up doing was selling the guns with their original barrels installed, and sent along the extra barrel with the gun for the end user to install or not install as they saw fit. Turned out to be great, because since the 9mm feeds just fine out of the 7.62x25 mags, they basically ended up selling you two guns for the price of one. My buddy got his hands on one, and long ago sold the original M57, but kept the barrel and we've since used it to warm up my Romanian TTC, my M57, his russian TT-33, and an acquaintance's Pakistani Tokarev without wearing out our wallets. The barrel functions fine in every one of the Toks, but on the Pakistani and Romanian guns, the barrel lugs lined up with the slide in such a way as to push it slightly forward of where it usually locks up. Functioned flawlessly though. If you can find one, I highly suggest getting a 9mm conversion barrel for your tokarev.
Also, on the topic of P-64s, I tend to prefer the earlier iterations of the gun, with the non triangular hammer spur. Without exception the trigger pull has been smoother, especially in double action, with the older models. I have one that has a 22 lbs Wolff recoil spring and a 18 lbs main spring installed, and it's my go-to carry gun for summer time when I'm wearing light clothing. I've literally had a light white hanes t-shirt and cargo shorts on, and not had it print at ALL in my IWB holster.
There were a whole bunch of M57 tokarevs that PW arms in Redmond WA had replaced the shot out barrels on with new chrome lined 9mm barrels- and because of this they could not be sold as C&R. That said, what they ended up doing was selling the guns with their original barrels installed, and sent along the extra barrel with the gun for the end user to install or not install as they saw fit. Turned out to be great, because since the 9mm feeds just fine out of the 7.62x25 mags, they basically ended up selling you two guns for the price of one. My buddy got his hands on one, and long ago sold the original M57, but kept the barrel and we've since used it to warm up my Romanian TTC, my M57, his russian TT-33, and an acquaintance's Pakistani Tokarev without wearing out our wallets. The barrel functions fine in every one of the Toks, but on the Pakistani and Romanian guns, the barrel lugs lined up with the slide in such a way as to push it slightly forward of where it usually locks up. Functioned flawlessly though. If you can find one, I highly suggest getting a 9mm conversion barrel for your tokarev.
Also, on the topic of P-64s, I tend to prefer the earlier iterations of the gun, with the non triangular hammer spur. Without exception the trigger pull has been smoother, especially in double action, with the older models. I have one that has a 22 lbs Wolff recoil spring and a 18 lbs main spring installed, and it's my go-to carry gun for summer time when I'm wearing light clothing. I've literally had a light white hanes t-shirt and cargo shorts on, and not had it print at ALL in my IWB holster.
