Over-the-Air Antenna Help

[eruby]

Am I wrong, but I thought you needed a special digital antenna now if not using cable?

Nope, an antenna (Any antenna) has no idea of the mode of transmission it receives; i.e. digital/analog/AM/FM/SSB etc. it just receives signals in a given frequency range, which hasn't changed, you do not have to have a "digital" antenna as retailers would lead you to believe

FWIW...the TV has more to do with the signals received and decoded than anything, i had several antennas, including beam antennas i tested along with several amplifiers, there were a couple channels i could never get (i can see TV hill from my roof in Brooklyn Park and I'm on TOP of the hill here) whereas a good friend of mine in a low lying area of Glen Burnie could get 10 more channels than I.... I have an older Insignia, one of the first with the built in digital decoders, and he has a brand new Sony...brought his TV to my house, hooked up my parabolic beam pointing due North and amplifier and we were watching WGAL Channel 8 in Harrisburg like it was channel 11(WBAL)....only thing that changed was the TV

Engine4, is your TV digital ready, or do you have one of those 'government digital converter boxes'?

As chale127 said, it's how the signal is decoded from the antenna, not the antenna itself that matters.

 

[vgplayer]

My setup:
Antenna http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0035A6AUG/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Amp http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DFZ5EW/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I am about 35 miles from DC towers and I have the antenna sitting on the floor of an unused bedroom upstairs.

 

[rob]

Old TV Antennas are not designed to work with Over The Air HD Digital signals. It's a different animal. If you have an old VHF/UHF antenna that was intended for old style analog signals you will be out of luck.

Save your money. Please, take an hour and build the one I linked too in my earlier post. It's really easy and it will actually get better reception then expensive antennas and it costs almost nothing to build. Please be aware that neatness counts and lengths, angles and spacing need to be right.

Rob

 

[G O B]

My camper is a '95 model with the old style antenna. It pulls in a better picture than most campground cable!

 

[TheBert]

Old TV Antennas are not designed to work with Over The Air HD Digital signals. It's a different animal. If you have an old VHF/UHF antenna that was intended for old style analog signals you will be out of luck.

Save your money. Please, take an hour and build the one I linked too in my earlier post. It's really easy and it will actually get better reception then expensive antennas and it costs almost nothing to build. Please be aware that neatness counts and lengths, angles and spacing need to be right.

Rob

Why does connecting a length of cable up to your HDTV work? Why does hooking up my old SDTV antennae to my HDTV work?

 

[awptickes]

Old TV Antennas are not designed to work with Over The Air HD Digital signals. It's a different animal. If you have an old VHF/UHF antenna that was intended for old style analog signals you will be out of luck.

Please, explain how this could possibly be true. I'm really interested to hear about how it the RF is different when the modulation is changed from analog to digital.

 

[TheBert]

Please, explain how this could possibly be true. I'm really interested to hear about how it the RF is different when the modulation is changed from analog to digital.

I am trying to figure out why my HDTV hooked up to my old UHF/VHF works when Rob says that the old UHF/VHF antennas aren't going to work.

 

[awptickes]

I want him to explain to me how the modulation of RF changes the RF so that physics suddenly stops.

Note:
He's entirely wrong.

The only difference between digital and analog signals is the modulation. The RF stays the same. There was, however, some truth to this Pre-2009 when many television stations broadcast their digital signal in UHF instead of VHF. Some people only had VHF antennas, and thus, couldn't receive the UHF stations. After the switch, the stations moved back to their VHF spectrum, and as such, the old antennas still worked.

The only change to stations was that they lost the 700mhz band (high UHF) which was really only usable in flatlands and high-density urban areas. Other than that, nothing changed.

Sources:
Me, an Extra Class amateur radio operator

 

[rob]

Old TV Antennas are not designed to work with Over The Air HD Digital signals. It's a different animal. If you have an old VHF/UHF antenna that was intended for old style analog signals you will be out of luck.

Save your money. Please, take an hour and build the one I linked too in my earlier post. It's really easy and it will actually get better reception then expensive antennas and it costs almost nothing to build. Please be aware that neatness counts and lengths, angles and spacing need to be right.

Rob

I want him to explain to me how the modulation of RF changes the RF so that physics suddenly stops.

Note:
He's entirely wrong.

The only difference between digital and analog signals is the modulation. The RF stays the same. There was, however, some truth to this Pre-2009 when many television stations broadcast their digital signal in UHF instead of VHF. Some people only had VHF antennas, and thus, couldn't receive the UHF stations. After the switch, the stations moved back to their VHF spectrum, and as such, the old antennas still worked.

The only change to stations was that they lost the 700mhz band (high UHF) which was really only usable in flatlands and high-density urban areas. Other than that, nothing changed.

Sources:
Me, an Extra Class amateur radio operator

You are correct, I was pretty much wrong. However, from what I read, older antennas tend to be less focused (less directional) and are therefore more likely to be affected by reflected signals which can confuse the decoding of a digital signal in the receiver but would not prevent an analog signal and the associated interference from being displayed. Nevertheless, this effect is still probably negligible.

Still no matter how you slice it, I get a crapload of channels with absolutely no problems from a virtually free antenna.

 

[awptickes]

Thank you sir. Your correction shows that real people actually use the internet. You sir, have my respect.

Yes, omnidirectional antennas and antennas in areas prone to reflections do degrade digital signal performance. I can see how that could have been easily misunderstood. To further explain, the digital radio signal gets reflected, and winds up out of sequence. This generates errors in the decoding process which gives you artifacts and color shifts -- all because OTA television doesn't have any built-in error correction.

Directional antennas, which is what I think of when I hear "old TV antenna" are pretty directional, but not in the polar coordinate you'd think. The nulls at the "back" aren't very big. Nor are the nulls at the sides. However, the nulls are tuned to give you vertical nulls that are pretty deep. This gives you a great way to "pull in" those stations off on the horizon.

 

[Anotherpyr]

ABC (2) out of Baltimore is broadcast over UHF in HD.

 

[awptickes]

ABC (2) out of Baltimore is broadcast over UHF in HD.

Fox is on UHF too. Not all the stations switched bands when they experimented with digital, just some. It all depended on their license.

 

[rico903]

Just curious if anyone has ever tried that Clear Choice set up they sell on late nite TV?
Next question, how do I get AM radio reception in my condo? Nothing I have tried has worked.

 

[awptickes]

"The Clear TV Digital TV Antenna" is a marketing gimmick. It's no better or worse than any other indoor antenna.

For indoor AM Broadcast radio, I'd use this antenna:
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Indoor-AM-Antenna-ADVANTAGE/dp/B000069EUW

If nothing you've tried has worked, it may be that your condo is stucco (wire mesh with concrete on top) and essentially a Faraday cage. In that case, you'll have to get the antenna outside, and the antenna above should work outside on a patio/deck, as long as it's protected from the elements.

 

[jjones88]

just a follow up

I built the DB4 style antenna, where I designed the center frequency to pull in Channel 13 (lowest frequency). However, the antenna ended up being very picky. Designing an antenna to pull in fringe signals in the VHF-Hi band is quite interesting. The radial length and spacing was quite challenging. Add in playing with the backscreen (learned that spacing of the elements of the grill had to be very specific or else loss would be too great), I had a very angry significant other!

I ended up randomly placing my leaf in my back room to another tv and somehow got both Baltimore and DC channels. After finding a great LNA, I ran a 100' cable and now get well over 50 channels.

Beyond confused still, antenna is facing 90 degrees in the wrong direction to pull Baltimore channels, so I must have serious reflections from something?

 

[awptickes]

Hard to tell without a lot more info I won't ask you to post on the interweb(s). It may be phased incorrectly if you're not getting reflections from something nearby. Have any really big buildings that you could draw a bounce path to b-more with? I don't think there isn't a critical measurement on that antenna besides the reflector surface area. If you're interested, it's also known as a "reflective array" or "bowtie array".

Personally, I say don't mess with it, for fear of repercussions. lol

If you wanted to try again, leave the old one (currently working one) up while you build a new one too keep her happy, then just try swapping it out, or playing with it when she's not watching TV.

 

[Half-cocked]

Use antennaweb.org to determine the actual locations of the broadcast antennas, you might be pointing closer to the actual source than you realize. Awptickles is right, too... UHF signals can and do bounce off buildings, water towers, etc., and sometimes if there's no direct line of sight towards the transmission source, you'll actually get a better signal pointing your antenna at a reflection.

 

[rico903]

"The Clear TV Digital TV Antenna" is a marketing gimmick. It's no better or worse than any other indoor antenna.

For indoor AM Broadcast radio, I'd use this antenna:
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Indoor-AM-Antenna-ADVANTAGE/dp/B000069EUW

If nothing you've tried has worked, it may be that your condo is stucco (wire mesh with concrete on top) and essentially a Faraday cage. In that case, you'll have to get the antenna outside, and the antenna above should work outside on a patio/deck, as long as it's protected from the elements.

Thanks, I'll give it a try. My condo is all concrete and brick. Built like a fortress so I guess that is a big problem. Only get a few FM stations also. Any suggestions on this? Want the AM so I can listen to some talk radio w/o being in my car. Wish I could figure out how to get radio stations from my computer to my stereo or TV.

 

[gamer_jim]

Thanks, I'll give it a try. My condo is all cornet and brick. Built like a fortress so I guess that is a big problem. Only get a few FM stations also. Any suggestions on this? Want the AM so I can listen to some talk radio w/o being in my car. Wish I could figure out how to get radio stations from my computer to my stereo or TV.

Can you get an antenna on the deck?

Also, there are a few websites that sell antennas where HOA rules are strict. Some of them are disguised as flag poles or bird feeders (which are not barred by the rules) or good attic antennas.

Other option is to listen to streaming over the interwebs.

 

[rico903]

Can you get an antenna on the deck?

Also, there are a few websites that sell antennas where HOA rules are strict. Some of them are disguised as flag poles or bird feeders (which are not barred by the rules) or good attic antennas.

Other option is to listen to streaming over the interwebs.

Yeah, I can put something on my balcony window sill or maybe railing if need be. Only problem will be the length of inside wire has to bypass my fire place some how. It will be long and I haven't figured out how to run it w/o looking like heck.