non regulated firearms tracking in MD

[lemmdus]

Post 2013 all long gun sales are cash and carry so the state would have to have access to 4473 forms or sales invoices from FFL holders (if store bought). The state has no basis in law to do that without a legitimate law enforcement purpose...and a fishing expedition ain't one). There would be no way the state would know about face-to-face sales between individuals.

For any member of law enforcement to come to your door and start asking to see what you own, they can certainly be within the law to ask...you would not be required to give any information beyond being polite and declining to provide answers. Beyond that, they would need probable cause and a search warrant.

Gun Guy has an excellent You Tube video about this. He is in CA which unfortunately is like MD.

 

[dblas]

We still have big math problem. Republicans are outnumbered 2:1 in this state, and a significant number of GOP members aren't exactly big 2A supporters, either. Remember the votes on the ERPO law? It's not as if a large number of current HBAR owners are currently voting D and are going to change their votes over this issue.

We can lessen the impact of the bills in committee (grandfathering for example), and buy some time to work things through the courts. That's the most viable strategy for now. Maryland is never going to become Wyoming.

We didn't compromise back in 2013, and in doing so we made O'Malley, Bush, and Miller threaten the Democrats on the House joint committee with their committee appointments and discressionary funds for their districts if they did not vote how they wanted them to. You see, since we didn't compromise in the House, and we hammered them for a month straight, we held up the vote for almost a month, and managed to come to an agreement for them to create 7 different work groups to study the 7 different parts of the law that SB281 affected. We were so damned effective, we made them threaten their own party members, we need to do that again, and we don't do that by compromising.

You're probably right. But firearms owners as a group tend to be some of the most obsessively law abiding folks I know. Most of us don't want to take the risk of playing the "criminal conviction lottery" and losing, regardless of the odds.

If these bills become law, that will change in a huge way.

And the anti legislators, activists, and the people who are buying them understand that risk calculus, and use it to our disadvantage.

No they don't, if they did they would understand the Constitutional defensive corner this backs the average law abiding citizen in. And I'm not aware of anyone that folds when they are backed into a corner, most of the folks I know tend to get real angry, real dangerous, and tend to fight their way out of that corner. No, they do not understand that calculus at, they never have and they never will

(And damn you for making me break my self imposed ban from this place)

 

[Allen65]

(And damn you for making me break my self imposed ban from this place)

Welcome back. It's good to have someone with substantive knowledge to debate COAs with. Not saying I agree completely, but you make some good points and managed to change my mind a few times.

 

[dblas]

Welcome back. It's good to have someone with substantive knowledge to debate COAs with. Not saying I agree completely, but you make some good points and managed to change my mind a few times.

Fair warning, I am turning into a "sour old man" so I may come across as short on occasion.

 

[PJDiesel]

"Turning" into?


Lol!

 

[Allen65]

Fair warning, I am turning into a "sour old man" so I may come across as short on occasion.

No sweat. You should try dealing with some of the people I have to work with. You're Miss Manners by comparison.

 

[dblas]

"Turning" into?


Lol!

Do the letters F Y mean anything to you???

 

[PJDiesel]

Do the letters F Y mean anything to you???

They have great meaning, I have the utmost respect and utility for them.

 

[Beancounter]

How Maryland becomes California

If you want to see the future of Maryland, just look at the present of California.

 

[Kicken Wing]

I think the thing is that many 2A supports aren't universal "not one infringement" people. I know plenty of guys who are gun owners, republicans even who just don't care about some gun control laws. ERPO? Well that won't effect me and I don't want some crazy maniac owning guns. I've heard that refrain. My neighbor begrudgingly wrote a few emails over the HBAR bill because I twisted his arm in to it. He "doesn't really care for black rifles. I am still pissed they banned the M1a, because I really want one of those".

Guess what, we are all in this together. He thinks the LGQL bill is ridiculous, but he doesn't think it will pass and it sucks, but "I mean, I could live with it even though it is a lot more hoops to jump through". Again, I twisted his arm in to writing to his/our legislators about it.

There are a LOT of gun owners who fall in to that group.

I agree with you when it comes to the "not one more infringement" people. If ALL gun owners stuck together and stood up to the constant onslaught of political lunacy then these politicians and legislators would not get away with this stuff. In a state like Maryland, "not one more infringement" is critical in keeping the anti-gun envelope from expanding. But as mentioned by Allen65, we are outnumbered by the number of "Democrats" and "Rinos" in this state. I was SHOCKED to find that more than some of my republican friends supported gun control measures after Newtown Connecticut in 2012. SHOCKED. I had friends that were gun owners that bought into the "assault weapons" scare tactic hook, line and sinker. I had many debates leading up to that October date. I did my best to try and educate and persuade my non-believing, gun owning, republican friends how absurd the proposed legislation was. "Not one more infringement". That's where I am at right now. Here we are again facing a really big challenge in Maryland. All of the bills that were introduced are a major threat to ALL of us. Once these bills do not eliminate the crime problem then they will go for your buddy's shotguns. Let's stick together.

 

[CBo]

but aren't there other ar variants that have been allowed besides colt hbar sporter clones, such as colts socom, and lwrc, which are named independently from from colt sporter hbar? then couldn't a person simply state their variant is a clone of the socom or whatever?

 

[teratos]

It wouldn’t, you can serialize them and sell them out of state. You just can’t be making them for people or as a business. IE if you made the firearms for yourself and decided to sell them later you aren’t in the business as a manufacturer. If you make one for your neighbor, you are a criminal.

Just need to add a makers mark and a unique to you as the maker serial number and it is legal to sell. Since it is out of state the sale would need to go to or through an FFL.

I am pretty outraged about the proposed law, but it isn’t quite a taking. Of course the result is likely we will need to destroy them.

Hypothetically, some people have 1911's and such they have thousands of dollars invested in.

Slightly off topic from Muleskinners original post but tangent to this quote.... Could you imagine the bad PR that these politicians would receive if EVERY SINGLE AR-15 bought post 10/2013 were hunted down and confiscated by the "Authorities"? Let alone the arrests that would be made for non compliance? How many AR-15's do you think were purchased within that time frame in the state of MD? Now consider the amount of work it would take to get ALL of those weapons out of the hands of the citizens. I think that once everyone has a relative that got thrown in jail for being a felon for owning a once legally owned firearm that became illegal to own overnight would be a turning point for most. Is that what it would take for the general population to realize the magnitude of the pure idiocy of all of this gun grabbing ********? "Hey, so and so is my uncle and he is a good guy but he just got thrown in jail for umteen years for owning a batch of AR-15's that he legally purchased!" Let THAT shit circulate and see how many of those politicians get re-elected. Maybe that is what it will take to get the rest of the country to wake up? Even then, I would still have my doubts.

Bad PR? Think dead LEO.

 

[Malleovic]

but aren't there other ar variants that have been allowed besides colt hbar sporter clones, such as colts socom, and lwrc, which are named independently from from colt sporter hbar? then couldn't a person simply state their variant is a clone of the socom or whatever?

Maybe, but probably not.

Besides firearms of different calibers, ones that operate differently (HK MR556) or don't interchange parts (KAC SR-15), most AR-15 variants "named independently" as you say or exempted are probably so because they have a heavy barrel, and are therefore (according to weird MSP logic) copies of the "Sporter H-BAR Rifle".

I'm talking about things like the Armalite M153GN18, the Colt AR-15 model M4A1-SOCOM (heavy barrel according to Colt), or the "Ruger AR-556 MPR #8522". All of these are only exempt because they share that feature, afaik.

This means that if they eliminate the HBAR exemption, they probably eliminate these as well.

 

[dblas]

but aren't there other ar variants that have been allowed besides colt hbar sporter clones, such as colts socom, and lwrc, which are named independently from from colt sporter hbar? then couldn't a person simply state their variant is a clone of the socom or whatever?

NO, because MSP considers the Colt SOCOM, LWRC, and others, sporter clones. Exactly that clones (i.e. copies) which the law bans for the current class of banned rifles. If this passes, the copies (Sporter clones) would also be banned by law.

 

[Mark75H]

Slightly off topic from Muleskinners original post but tangent to this quote.... Could you imagine the bad PR that these politicians would receive if EVERY SINGLE AR-15 bought post 10/2013 were hunted down and confiscated by the "Authorities"? Let alone the arrests that would be made for non compliance? How many AR-15's do you think were purchased within that time frame in the state of MD? Now consider the amount of work it would take to get ALL of those weapons out of the hands of the citizens. I think that once everyone has a relative that got thrown in jail for being a felon for owning a once legally owned firearm that became illegal to own overnight would be a turning point for most. Is that what it would take for the general population to realize the magnitude of the pure idiocy of all of this gun grabbing ********? "Hey, so and so is my uncle and he is a good guy but he just got thrown in jail for umteen years for owning a batch of AR-15's that he legally purchased!" Let THAT shit circulate and see how many of those politicians get re-elected. Maybe that is what it will take to get the rest of the country to wake up? Even then, I would still have my doubts.

California is suffering with this problem as we stew in MD. They cannot keep staff in the confiscation department. People keep retiring or quitting. They can find enough LEO's willing to do the job, even in Commifornia

 

[jamesp15]

I am concerned with the probably thousands, maybe into the hundred thousand area possibly, people who purchased their HBAR's legally after Oct 2013 that do not follow this kind of politics/legislation at all. Lots of people who wont have any idea that they suddenly own a banned weapon and could potentially become felons overnight after Oct 2019 if this passes...

I wrote to all my delegates/senators in the house (and the bill sponsors as well) asking about this around 10 days ago, and not a single one has replied.

 

[Kicken Wing]

California is suffering with this problem as we stew in MD. They cannot keep staff in the confiscation department. People keep retiring or quitting. They can find enough LEO's willing to do the job, even in Commifornia

Not trying to be a grammar nazi but it sounds like you meant to say "can't" find enough, correct? That does not surprise me about the situation in California. How many times can a policeman arrest normal law abiding citizens before they say, "hey, this is not right". Police are just people with a conscious too. It sounds like they have reached a point where the laws have become so far fetched that they had to step aside and check their moral compass.

 

[Kicken Wing]

I am concerned with the probably thousands, maybe into the hundred thousand area possibly, people who purchased their HBAR's legally after Oct 2013 that do not follow this kind of politics/legislation at all. Lots of people who wont have any idea that they suddenly own a banned weapon and could potentially become felons overnight after Oct 2019 if this passes...

I wrote to all my delegates/senators in the house (and the bill sponsors as well) asking about this around 10 days ago, and not a single one has replied.

This is one of the same issues that I had with the FSA2013. The first draft of that bill was not going to grandfather the newly defined "assault weapons". You had so long to turn in your newly illegal weapon that may have been in your safe of gun cabinet for many years. Unless you actually read the bill, how were you to know what guns were going to be illegal? Imagine the number of people that would have become an overnight felon and not even know it. Same thing with a couple of these proposed bills.

 

[Pinecone]

but aren't there other ar variants that have been allowed besides colt hbar sporter clones, such as colts socom, and lwrc, which are named independently from from colt sporter hbar? then couldn't a person simply state their variant is a clone of the socom or whatever?

The only AR that is exempted from the ban, in the law, is the Colt HBAR Match Sporter.

Another place states that all copies or imitations of banned firearms are also banned. Which the extension is, copies and imitations of exempted firearms are exempted.

No other ones are exempted in the law.

Some AR like rifles are not banned, because they are not copies or imitations of the AR. Such as the piston type action rifles.

Remember, the list was developed in 1989. A lot of the variants were not even around then. The HBAR Match Sporter was exempted to show everyone they were not against "legitimate sporting uses" such as target shooting and hunting.

 

[Allen65]

Remember, the list was developed in 1989. A lot of the variants were not even around then. The HBAR Match Sporter was exempted to show everyone they were not against "legitimate sporting uses" such as target shooting and hunting.

Unfortunately the current crop of antis has moved the goalposts, and are now admitting their true mindset that there is no legitimate sporting use for any firearm. Next year we'll probably see a bill from Dumais, Moon or Ferguson to create the MQL, the "Musket Qualification License", and all flints will need to be serialized by an 07 FFL.