Non-Lethal 12 Gauge Rounds

[Unspoken]

Hey all!

I was giving non-lethal rounds some thought last night. Generally, my 870 is loaded with 6 (six) Federal 12Ga 12 pellet 00 buck, with a stock shell holder thats holding another federal, 2 remington buckshot loads, and 2 remington slug loads. It stays loaded at my bed side. Obviously im prepared to protect myself and my roommates in a HD situation. Shoot to stop the threat. Nothing less, nothing more.

But the thought crossed my mind that what if an intruder was someone I knew? Say someone that I had recently acquired as an enemy, however at some point was a friend. I know an intruder is an intruder is an intruder, and if your life is in danger, you shoot to stop the threat, but what if I dont have it in my to kill this person? My conscience gets in the way of my safety, etc.

Does anyone here load the first shell in their HD shotgun with a less-lethal round such as rock salt or beanbags or rubber balls? Then the rest of the tube with lethal rounds?

This is more out of curiosity/ how the forum feels about non-lethal rounds. The biggest downside I can see to loading the first shell with non-lethal is what if your attacker has a gun and you dont have time to shoot off 2 rounds before the threat is stopped? You dont get to choose your attackers. I just know that if a once called friend invaded my home, with say a knife, something less lethal, however still deadly, a non-lethal round could be enough to stop the threat and secure the situation. If it escalates further, well, my former friend, the gloves are off.

Im sure much of the response will be "screw the former friend/ acquintance, they invade my home, theyre gone." But maybe someone sees what im getting at.

Thoughts?

 

[mikec]

We are not police. We can only use a firearm when our life, or the life of a family member is at grave risk. Act or that person dies. Less than lethal has no place in a gun.

Less than lethal MIGHT have a place in training, MIGHT. I will not buy or load any in my firearms unless I am a training facility and there is independent verification I have no live ammo.

 

[BlueHeeler]

You are the one that has to live with the result. So no matter what anyone else says on the internet, you are the responsible party. Do what you feel comfortable with.

Personally I feel it is critical to identify the target as a lethal threat BEFORE shooting. Using less lethal rounds as a safety net is a bad idea IMHO.

 

[BILGERATED]

Just keep in mind that, the rounds you are inquiring about are not refered to as non-lethal but less-lethal. Shooting someone at close range may still kill them, not from penetration, but from blunt force trauma. Bean bag, rubber shot, rocksalt, even blanks can kill a person. Beanbag rounds have enough energy to put a decent sized dent in a 55gal drum or steel door. Rubber buckshot may penetrate at close range. Some PD's train officers to "bounce" these rounds off the ground to lessen the impact force. ALS does make a "hydrokinetic" shell that is somewhat safe at 7 yards, but not closer. However, ALS does not make their product available to the general public. Most home invasion encounters happen within less than 7 yards, making less-lethal rounds, potentialy lethal. Also, you are opening a whole can of legal worms if you choose to shoot. IMHO, if you feel you need to shoot, be sure you do not have any other choice. When the police arrive, you're first words should be..."I was in fear for my life", "I had no other choice but to defend myself". You may also add, "It was dark and I could not see well". After that, don't say another word without a lawyer present. Do not speak to the press or anyone else.

 

[Unspoken]

Just keep in mind that, the rounds you are inquiring about are not refered to as non-lethal but less-lethal. Shooting someone at close range may still kill them, not from penetration, but from blunt force trauma. Bean bag, rubber shot, rocksalt, even blanks can kill a person. Beanbag rounds have enough energy to put a decent sized dent in a 55gal drum or steel door. Rubber buckshot may penetrate at close range. Some PD's train officers to "bounce" these rounds off the ground to lessen the impact force. ALS does make a "hydrokinetic" shell that is somewhat safe at 7 yards, but not closer. However, ALS does not make their product available to the general public. Most home invasion encounters happen within less than 7 yards, making less-lethal rounds, potentialy lethal. Also, you are opening a whole can of legal worms if you choose to shoot. IMHO, if you feel you need to shoot, be sure you do not have any other choice. When the police arrive, you're first words should be..."I was in fear for my life", "I had no other choice but to defend myself". You may also add, "It was dark and I could not see well". After that, don't say another word without a lawyer present. Do not speak to the press or anyone else.

Wise words! And thank you for the correction of terminology!

I had read elsewhere that "less-lethal" rounds open you to legal ramifications because you could be charged with "shooting to harm."

 

[BILGERATED]

No problem, here to help. It's really not so much as shooting to harm. In this state, it could be condsidered attempted murder. But that's just a screwed up legal system. You really need to be mindful of the situation. Personally, I would not use less-lethal just because its a false sense of security. Shooting someone is shooting someone, regardless of the round used. It could land you in a LOT of touble. The other thing that you need to be aware of, is that really a home invader or is it someone that lives there just getting home late? Its a tricky situation but the only thing you can do is adapt to what is going on. If you feel there is no other alternative, then do what you need to do to protect yourself or family.

 

[jonnyl]

I think the pros and cons are similar to that of the "warning shot" debate. My theory would be that you shouldn't pull the trigger at all unless you think your life is in danger if you don't. If that's the case you don't want a bean bag. If you've already deployed a shotgun, that should be warning enough to a thinking aggressor.

You said this in your post

If it escalates further, well, my former friend, the gloves are off

In my mind, it's already escalated to that point. However, it's obviously a very personal choice and I see the dilemma and hope to never face it.

 

[AssMan]

I also think about this. Not the same scenario specifically, but wether or not I want the first round to be a lethal one. My hope is that the intruder will run off when blinded by the weapon light and hearing the shotgun chamber a shell. If not, I generally give them one more opportunity to turn, as the first shell up is #7 birdshot. If the birdshot doesn't stop them, then it's 00 and slugs from there on out.

I know this isn't a popular approach, but it's what I'm comfortable with.

 

[Unspoken]

Great points all around!

I also think about this. Not the same scenario specifically, but wether or not I want the first round to be a lethal one. My hope is that the intruder will run off when blinded by the weapon light and hearing the shotgun chamber a shell. If not, I generally give them one more opportunity to turn, as the first shell up is #7 birdshot. If the birdshot doesn't stop them, then it's 00 and slugs from there on out.

I know this isn't a popular approach, but it's what I'm comfortable with.

See this is also what ive heard many do, is load birdshot first, then 00 and slugs.

 

[BILGERATED]

That's what I do. Birdshot is going to hurt like hell if it doesn't kill you first, then buckshot. The other thing you have to keep in mind is overpenetration. There is a good chance that one of those pellets are going to either go straight through or miss and go though a wall to your neighbors house. I believe remington is now making home defense shells that have either BB or 2 & 4 shot packed together, both of which create a very tight pattern to avoid the stray pellet.

 

[joppaj]

Sorry my friend, but no way. I'm aiming a lethal weapon at someone because they are threat to my life. Every shot MUST have the intent to stop the threat immediatly.

 

[HardHatMan]

Sorry my friend, but no way. I'm aiming a lethal weapon at someone because they are threat to my life. Every shot MUST have the intent to stop the threat immediatly.

This.

 

[Ethan83]

With regards to a pump shotgun, I keep the mag tube full and the chamber empty. Racking the slide to load the first shell is the 'warning.' If this does not achieve the desired outcome, you'll be glad the shell you just loaded is buckshot.

 

[Unspoken]

With regards to a pump shotgun, I keep the mag tube full and the chamber empty. Racking the slide to load the first shell is the 'warning.' If this does not achieve the desired outcome, you'll be glad the shell you just loaded is buckshot.

Something to consider. This is the same way I keep mine. 6 in the tube, action closed. I guess if you were at some point my "friend" you would know im quite proficient with my weapon. Im just afraid that if the person knows me, they think I might not shoot. And what if I cant? You know? In that split second of hesitation/ morality check of "should I" a knife weilding attacker can close the distance making a shotgun useless aside from a blunt object. What if his will to harm me is greater than mine to end the threat?

Scary thought. Ive never been in that situation before, and god willing, never will have to. I train in the event that it does, but no training can prepare you to shoot a once called friend.

Discuss?

EDIT: Although, it seems like even at those distances that a "less-lethal" round would still be pretty damn lethal. So I guess its a matter of self preservation in my own mind. Hmm. Something to give thought to.

 

[Jerry M]

That's what I do. Birdshot is going to hurt like hell if it doesn't kill you first, then buckshot....

At tag you're it distances the shot is not going to expand at all and hit like a slug. Shot cardboard at close range to see what I mean.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[smokedog]

You may have one chance to stop the intruder not knowing their intentions but knowing they are breaking into a occupied dwelling at night , I would assume they already planned for a confrontation and I want to win.
If it indeed was a ex-friend I could only assume he was there to do things friends don't do and treat him the same as any intruder if he doesn't retreat.
Lethal all the way.
I could hear it now after the (friend) intruder survives the bean bag "I was leaving and he stopped me and told me to turn around and shot me, I was leaving , help me that mans crazy"

 

[HardHatMan]

Something to consider. This is the same way I keep mine. 6 in the tube, action closed. I guess if you were at some point my "friend" you would know im quite proficient with my weapon. Im just afraid that if the person knows me, they think I might not shoot. And what if I cant? You know? In that split second of hesitation/ morality check of "should I" a knife weilding attacker can close the distance making a shotgun useless aside from a blunt object. What if his will to harm me is greater than mine to end the threat?

Scary thought. Ive never been in that situation before, and god willing, never will have to. I train in the event that it does, but no training can prepare you to shoot a once called friend.

Discuss?

I hope that you, or anyone, never has to be put in that situation. But if you are, you need to be ready to act accordingly. If someone/anyone comes into my home wielding a deadly weapon, I would not hesitate to react. If it was a "friend" coming at me with a deadly weapon, that friendship has soared out the window. Less than lethal rounds MIGHT stop them or it could just piss them off even more.

You can choose. Them or you. It's a decision you will have to live with for the rest of your life.

 

[smokering]

Ex-friends you punch out....people trying to stick you with a knife you neutralize.

Everybody is your friend until they %64@ your wife, shoot your dog and steal your car.

 

[Unspoken]

Everybody is your friend until they %69@ your wife, shoot your dog and steal your car.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Ethan83]

Y'know I've been scratching my head this whole time wondering what on earth you did to piss off a "friend" so badly... I guess let it be a lesson learned that if you ever have any doubts, the p***y just isn't worth it.