no more force than was reasonably necessary: self defense

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  • Wapato

    Active Member
    Aug 26, 2011
    108
    I figured I had better make this a separate discussion from the property thread.

    So going through other threads here, it seems like you are allowed to defend your own life and the lives of your family.

    However if you don't let them just kill you, than you're pretty much going to have to go before a jury of Marylanders and convince them that you both had a "reasonable" belief that you were imminently in danger, and that you used no more force than was reasonably necessary.

    In some threads, members have indicated that if you shoot someone too many times or hit them in the head you're likely to go to jail. Many gun drills such as the failure drill and bill drill emphasize multiple shots and/or headshots in order to effectively stop an assailant (because a single gunshot center of mass is unlikely to be able to stop someone barring a psychological response). Are they sure ways to go to jail?

    Do some "letter of the law" elements cease to matter? For example as I understand it the letter of the law states that you do not have a requirement to retreat in your home. However if a jury decides that, since you didn't retreat, you're a murderous psychopath and thus decides to agree with the prosecution your actions were unreasonable and your force excessive and sends you to jail, than you really don't have that right. Now, I'm not so much looking to debate whether the jury doing such a thing is right as I am trying to discern what the reality is.

    I've also seen members saying that there are "no warning shots" and "no shooting to wound". However again would that be the sort of thing that could help you in a jury case? The idea being that you were putting your life at increased jeopardy by attempting to use as little force as you could to stop the threat. This would seem to be especially relevant if you're dealing with someone who is clearly unarmed but still rushing you, or if you're dealing with a shadowy form and don't know if they're armed or not or what the situation is. If you fire a warning shot into the ceiling or a round into their leg and they advance afterward than that would seem solid evidence they were dangerous and violent. You might still get charged with something afterwards, but if you just kill them than you're looking at a murder charge.

    Finally, does the equipment matter? For example, one could argue that there are tactical advantages to having a mil-spec pistol gripped tacticool evil black gun with bayonet, but in the courtroom would you be a whole lot better off if it's a deer gun with beautiful walnut furniture sitting on the table as exhibit A?
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    Shot placement should not matter in a true self defense situation as long as the force was found to be reasonable.

    In other words if you are in an active gun fight and defending yourself inside your home then it shouldnt matter where you hit the bad guy.

    The gun used I think is a non issue. Any decent defense attorney is going to tear that up if it's brought up. The bottom line is a black powder rifle is going to kill just as much as a Ar or AK. They way it looks shouldnt matter as an attorney is going to bring in a ballistic expert to squish what the gun looks like. They all fire projectiles at a high rate.

    If you are justified in using a firearm to defend your life or your families life why would you want warning shots?
     

    Lex Armarum

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 19, 2009
    3,450
    A. Search is your friend;

    B. Most of your answers are here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=64731&page=3 @ post #60;

    C. From your questions, it sounds like your asking for a legal opinion on several different hypothetical situations (not gonna happen);

    D. You guys really do love to over think this stuff.

    P.S. I'm not trying to be mean but this question always gets asked and gets answered pretty much with the same answer time after time.
     

    jawn

    YOU TROLLIN!
    Feb 10, 2011
    2,884
    INTARWEB
    In some threads, members have indicated that if you shoot someone too many times or hit them in the head you're likely to go to jail. Many gun drills such as the failure drill and bill drill emphasize multiple shots and/or headshots in order to effectively stop an assailant (because a single gunshot center of mass is unlikely to be able to stop someone barring a psychological response). Are they sure ways to go to jail?

    I've also seen members saying that there are "no warning shots" and "no shooting to wound". However again would that be the sort of thing that could help you in a jury case? The idea being that you were putting your life at increased jeopardy by attempting to use as little force as you could to stop the threat. This would seem to be especially relevant if you're dealing with someone who is clearly unarmed but still rushing you, or if you're dealing with a shadowy form and don't know if they're armed or not or what the situation is. If you fire a warning shot into the ceiling or a round into their leg and they advance afterward than that would seem solid evidence they were dangerous and violent. You might still get charged with something afterwards, but if you just kill them than you're looking at a murder charge.

    You shoot to stop an imminent threat. Step one in this process is identifying the threat. At no point should you shoot at a shadowy form; this is why we buy flashlights. Step two in this process, after you have identified the threat, is to shoot him until he is no longer an imminent threat to your persons; if he flees, you cannot continue shooting, if he is down on the ground and showing no signs of aggression, you cannot continue shooting.

    If you shoot someone who you have not determined to be a threat, you have just assaulted someone with a deadly weapon.

    The reality is that after any shoot (justified or otherwise), you're probably going to face legal and/or civil repercussions.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and these types of threads can go on forever. My suggestion is for you to consult a lawyer and get good training. You should perhaps not devise your home defense strategy based on something anonymous strangers suggest on the internet.
     

    jonnyl

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 23, 2009
    5,969
    Frederick
    Maryland is pretty liberal (understatement), and not much of a friend to gun owners. However, I have to admit that I haven't seen a case (at least in the last couple years) where everyone seemed to agree on a good shoot, and the person ended up being prosecuted. I feel like that fear, while real, is somewhat over hyped in this state.

    ditto the shoot to stop the threat comments, and the I'm not a lawyer ones!
     

    Wapato

    Active Member
    Aug 26, 2011
    108
    If you are justified in using a firearm to defend your life or your families life why would you want warning shots?

    All the Maryland laws on self defence first have conditions that must be met in order to use deadly force. However even once you justified in using deadly force, they all retain the "no more force than neccessary" clause. So if somebody is rushing the bedroom with a knife and rapidly put them down with a hail of fire while they're at eight yards, maybe you go to jail here because they'd say it would take 2 seconds or so for them to reach you so you could have shot them in the leg or something.

    Obviously, I don't know the answer to that.

    B. Most of your answers are here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=64731&page=3 @ post #60;

    Actually, that's where a number of my questions came from. :P

    Actually, lemmi check, I think one of the issues comes from one of your posts. Here we are:

    He defended his home first by locking the door, by warning the deceased to stay out, then by holding the door against the deceased, and finally, when it became apparent that the deceased would be able to force his way in, by backing away from the door and firing his shotgun at the deceased's hand. The trial court believed appellant when he said he did not fire at the deceased's head, and believed that the appellant's statement that the gun jerked up when fired was reasonable. (With regard to the possible effect of this lack of intent to fire at the head, see Alberty v. United States, supra, and Beard v. United States, supra.)

    Since it was mentioned in this manner, it indicated to me that the distinction between accidentally and deliberately hitting the head was an important one.

    Other posters have made little comments in threads I've brought up searching that have mentioned headshots being trouble.

    I do appreciate you linking to actual information.



    D. You guys really do love to over think this stuff.

    Well, not everybody does. There's a fairly constant trickle in the news of gun owners going to jail for defending their family or property.
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    All the Maryland laws on self defence first have conditions that must be met in order to use deadly force. However even once you justified in using deadly force, they all retain the "no more force than neccessary" clause.

    If you are in my home unwanted/uninvited and you have a weapon clearly visible in your hand you would be a threat to me and my family.

    I could easily articulate this situation...and no I wouldnt fire any "warning" or "shots intended to only wound".

    I'd be confident that I'd have no legal issues what so ever if some stranger is in my house confronting me or my family with a weapon.

    Even in this lib-state.
     

    mward

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 4, 2009
    1,198
    Annapolis
    A. Search is your friend;

    B. Most of your answers are here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=64731&page=3 @ post #60;

    C. From your questions, it sounds like your asking for a legal opinion on several different hypothetical situations (not gonna happen);

    D. You guys really do love to over think this stuff.

    P.S. I'm not trying to be mean but this question always gets asked and gets answered pretty much with the same answer time after time.

    Barton Vs. State is a little different than this situation....
     
    Aug 19, 2011
    1,503
    Fredneck, MD
    Just to preface this, my father took a CCW class in Michigan and what they told him was the safest way to prevent prosecution was this:

    If you hear an intruder coming into your home, grab your firearm. Then lock the bedroom door and reenforce it with whatever you can. Grab the phone, dial 911, give them your name, address and whatever info they want. Then put the phone on speaker and set it down. Announce to the intruder that you are on the phone with 911, you're armed and will shoot if they enter. If they manage to enter, the self-defense is justified. If you're unable to secure yourself from the threat before they engage you, self-defense is justified.
    Now obviously, two things- if you have children or others staying in your home, this probably would be difficult to perform, but seems pretty airtight for single/married couples. Assuming you're not sleeping on the couch. Also, it's an entirely different state with (I'm assuming) entirely different laws/attitudes. But it was interesting to a greenhorn, like myself.
     

    Lex Armarum

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 19, 2009
    3,450
    All the Maryland laws on self defence first have conditions that must be met in order to use deadly force. However even once you justified in using deadly force, they all retain the "no more force than neccessary" clause. So if somebody is rushing the bedroom with a knife and rapidly put them down with a hail of fire while they're at eight yards, maybe you go to jail here because they'd say it would take 2 seconds or so for them to reach you so you could have shot them in the leg or something.

    Obviously, I don't know the answer to that.



    Actually, that's where a number of my questions came from. :P

    Actually, lemmi check, I think one of the issues comes from one of your posts. Here we are:



    Since it was mentioned in this manner, it indicated to me that the distinction between accidentally and deliberately hitting the head was an important one.

    Other posters have made little comments in threads I've brought up searching that have mentioned headshots being trouble.

    I do appreciate you linking to actual information.





    Well, not everybody does. There's a fairly constant trickle in the news of gun owners going to jail for defending their family or property.

    You're over-thinking it and reading way to much into the Court's wandering and wondering about hand vs. head. The moral of the story is that dude entering home in threatening manner got kilt and that was ok not because the defendant thought that he was shooting at the guys hand but because the defendant held a reasonable belief that the gentlemen breaking into his home presented an imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death.
     

    MDFF2008

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 12, 2008
    24,782
    Well, not everybody does. There's a fairly constant trickle in the news of gun owners going to jail for defending their family or property.

    Can you provide some cases? I've noticed with most of the ones in the national news, there is a clear break in the chain of danger.
     

    StantonCree

    Watch your beer
    Jan 23, 2011
    23,946
    A. Search is your friend;

    B. Most of your answers are here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=64731&page=3 @ post #60;

    C. From your questions, it sounds like your asking for a legal opinion on several different hypothetical situations (not gonna happen);

    D. You guys really do love to over think this stuff.

    P.S. I'm not trying to be mean but this question always gets asked and gets answered pretty much with the same answer time after time.

    You must be the worlds most accurate hammer because you just hit the nail right on the head (no thats not sarcasm)!! Can we not have this debate anymore? Thanks in advance hahaha
     

    simplegreen

    Professional Nerd
    A. Search is your friend;

    B. Most of your answers are here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=64731&page=3 @ post #60;

    C. From your questions, it sounds like your asking for a legal opinion on several different hypothetical situations (not gonna happen);

    D. You guys really do love to over think this stuff..

    P.S. I'm not trying to be mean but this question always gets asked and gets answered pretty much with the same answer time after time

    :thumbsup:
     

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