NFA Trusts...

[P-12 Norm]

As sometimes said here, IANAL...
So, I am looking into getting a suppressor, and this idea of a trust for NFA is new to me. I see some sites like Silencer Co get you referred to a site for trusts, and Silencer Central offers it to customers internally, and it is included in their costs. Then there are folks who write up trusts as a part of their practice separate from any silencer seller.
My questions are:
Is there an appreciable difference between a Trust purchased thru a purveyor of Class III items?
Is there a difference in how additional items are added to the trust, depending on which trust is purchased?
How DO you add new items to a trust, or new people to it? Do you add them via a lawyer, what?

 

[dontpanic]

The trust is the purchaser. That is how you add new items. You add new people to the trust with an amendment to the trust. Pretty straight forward, some trusts will come with a form to help you with that or you could get a lawyer to draw it up.

Trusts are really not needed unless you want more than one person to have access to the item. It used to be a way to bypass the LEO signature. But now you just need to notify them.

 

[outrider58]

The trust is the purchaser. That is how you add new items. You add new people to the trust with an amendment to the trust. Pretty straight forward, some trusts will come with a form to help you with that or you could get a lawyer to draw it up.

Trusts are really not needed unless you want more than one person to have access to the item. It used to be a way to bypass the LEO signature. But now you just need to notify them.

This.

Your trust will have a name which will be, in the case of a form1(making your own NFA item), will be inscribed onto the item you make, or if a form4 is the route(buying an already made item), will be purchased by the trust. If you want others in your trust(like family members), they too will need prints and pics done.

A lot of people, nowadays, do multiple trusts. One for each item. The one thing you want to be aware of, if you have a trust but you bought an item in your name and you wish to transfer it into your trust later, you will have to do a form4 transfer and buy a stamp($200) to do so.

 

[smdub]

Trusts are really not needed unless you want more than one person to have access to the item.

This is true but one can also be helpful in case of your death, disqualifying conviction, etc. You can also think of it as a will for your NFA items.

 

[shiza]

This is true but one can also be helpful in case of your death, disqualifying conviction, etc. You can also think of it as a will for your NFA items.

This. I just dealt with an NFA transfer after a death and the item was not in a trust. Huge PIA. I'd also steer clear of the silencershop and other "single shot" trusts as you cannot update them after creation. I've used NationalGunTrust for one and the process was easy and cheap. They also allow you to update the trust at anytime.

 

[nosbocaj]

This. I just dealt with an NFA transfer after a death and the item was not in a trust. Huge PIA. I'd also steer clear of the silencershop and other "single shot" trusts as you cannot update them after creation. I've used NationalGunTrust for one and the process was easy and cheap. They also allow you to update the trust at anytime.

Were the items named in the individual's will? I think that's the big step to avoiding headaches. I went individual on all 6 of my suppressors and 2 SBR's, simply because barely any of my friends or family shoot and the ones that do never plan on owning NFA items. Despite that, I asked a number of them to join my trust and they flat out said no. So I was literally left with one option. My dealer told me not to sweat it and to name them in detail in my will. That's also echoed here:

Passing NFA Items Down To Your Heirs Without A Trust - eSilencers - Suppressors For Sale Online

Passing NFA Items Down To Your Heirs Without A Trust From the desk of eSilencers CEO, John Rich You have finally decided to take the plunge into the NFA World, and your going to start buying Suppressors, SBR’s, etc. But one looming decision that you have to make is how are you going to file....

esilencers.com

Obviously, I don't know how effective this process is in practice. Mine are willed to my wife, who I know likely couldn't care less about them in the event of my passing. It's more for legal protection so she's not stuck with items that turn her into a felon.

To OP, it's always smarter to go with a trust, unless you're like me and can't find a single person to join yours. Sure, you can be on the trust alone, but that kinda defeats the purpose if you don't plan on adding others.

 

[dontpanic]

This is true but one can also be helpful in case of your death, disqualifying conviction, etc. You can also think of it as a will for your NFA items.

I added my wife to the trust because she has access to my safe. Otherwise I would need separate storage for my NFA itwms.

 

[FakeID]

Ive purchased several cans in the past 5 or so years and went with the single shot trust from silencer shop for each. Did this simply so i can eventually add my family members in the event they want to go to the range without me or in the case of my passing they can take possession without any headaches.
From what i understand adding members to the trust just takes a couple signatures on a provided form and keeping copies with the item- no finger prints or background checks.
One downside from what ive seen in the NFA item groups seems to be longer wait time for trust approvals. Just speculation though.
Ive gone single track mind with these so i cant speak to other options, but i felt the single shot trust was very easy and future proof. Wish i had bought the option for single shot unlimited trusts on the first purchase since ive exceeded its cost in buying single shot trusts by now.
Not sure what @dontpanic meant with notifying LEO, so that's going to be this evenings course of study to make sure im not an accidental felon. Pretty sure im good to go unless i plan to travel out of state. If your doing research on cans pew science can be helpful.

 

[dontpanic]

Ive purchased several cans in the past 5 or so years and went with the single shot trust from silencer shop for each. Did this simply so i can eventually add my family members in the event they want to go to the range without me or in the case of my passing they can take possession without any headaches.
From what i understand adding members to the trust just takes a couple signatures on a provided form and keeping copies with the item- no finger prints or background checks.
One downside from what ive seen in the NFA item groups seems to be longer wait time for trust approvals. Just speculation though.
Ive gone single track mind with these so i cant speak to other options, but i felt the single shot trust was very easy and future proof. Wish i had bought the option for single shot unlimited trusts on the first purchase since ive exceeded its cost in buying single shot trusts by now.
Not sure what @dontpanic meant with notifying LEO, so that's going to be this evenings course of study to make sure im not an accidental felon. Pretty sure im good to go unless i plan to travel out of state. If your doing research on cans pew science can be helpful.

See line 12 and instruction 2f. I know it is on form 1 and form 4. Not sure about others because I haven’t used them

 

[BurkeM]

Is there an appreciable difference between a Trust purchased thru a purveyor of Class III items?

No.

Is there a difference in how additional items are added to the trust, depending on which trust is purchased?

No.

How DO you add new items to a trust, or new people to it? Do you add them via a lawyer, what?

This is a conversation to have with your LAWYER doing the paperwork.

We are not your lawyers.

 

[outrider58]

Ive purchased several cans in the past 5 or so years and went with the single shot trust from silencer shop for each. Did this simply so i can eventually add my family members in the event they want to go to the range without me or in the case of my passing they can take possession without any headaches.
From what i understand adding members to the trust just takes a couple signatures on a provided form and keeping copies with the item- no finger prints or background checks...

Not correct: See FAQ What do the new ATF 41F regulations mean?

Note: Every responsible person in your NFA Gun Trust - settlor and co-trustees are required to submit photo cards, fingerprint cards and the responsible persons questionnaire for every NFA firearms purchase.

NFA Gun Trust Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)

NFA Gun Trust Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) Our NFA Gun Trust Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) refer to and pertain to our NFA Gun Trusts. You can learn more about our NFA Gun Trusts or buy your NFA Gun Trust here. What is an NFA firearm? A NFA Firearm is a firearm that is regulated...

www.nationalguntrusts.com

 

[P-12 Norm]

This.

Your trust will have a name which will be, in the case of a form1(making your own NFA item), will be inscribed onto the item you make, or if a form4 is the route(buying an already made item), will be purchased by the trust. If you want others in your trust(like family members), they too will need prints and pics done.

A lot of people, nowadays, do multiple trusts. One for each item. The one thing you want to be aware of, if you have a trust but you bought an item in your name and you wish to transfer it into your trust later, you will have to do a form4 transfer and buy a stamp($200) to do so.

Sounds like it is cheaper to just make the first purchase via the trust.

 

[P-12 Norm]

Were the items named in the individual's will? I think that's the big step to avoiding headaches. I went individual on all 6 of my suppressors and 2 SBR's, simply because barely any of my friends or family shoot and the ones that do never plan on owning NFA items. Despite that, I asked a number of them to join my trust and they flat out said no. So I was literally left with one option. My dealer told me not to sweat it and to name them in detail in my will. That's also echoed here:

Passing NFA Items Down To Your Heirs Without A Trust - eSilencers - Suppressors For Sale Online

Passing NFA Items Down To Your Heirs Without A Trust From the desk of eSilencers CEO, John Rich You have finally decided to take the plunge into the NFA World, and your going to start buying Suppressors, SBR’s, etc. But one looming decision that you have to make is how are you going to file....

esilencers.com

Obviously, I don't know how effective this process is in practice. Mine are willed to my wife, who I know likely couldn't care less about them in the event of my passing. It's more for legal protection so she's not stuck with items that turn her into a felon.

To OP, it's always smarter to go with a trust, unless you're like me and can't find a single person to join yours. Sure, you can be on the trust alone, but that kinda defeats the purpose if you don't plan on adding others.

That's a very helpful link, and sound advice. Thanks.

 

[outrider58]

Sounds like it is cheaper to just make the first purchase via the trust.

That's what I did. Back when I started(2014), you usually had to find a lawyer to draft your trust. Cheaper online trusts were just beginning to spring up, but in the beginning, they weren't always applicable to every state. I quit doing NFA purchases in July of 2016 when ATF 41F regulations were enacted, which required prints and pics. My wife and daughter are both listed on my trust as trustees.

 

[P-12 Norm]

Final Question: Is there a lawyer who any of you fine patriots recommend for an NFA trust?

 

[smdub]

Not correct: See FAQ What do the new ATF 41F regulations mean?

NFA Gun Trust Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)

NFA Gun Trust Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) Our NFA Gun Trust Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) refer to and pertain to our NFA Gun Trusts. You can learn more about our NFA Gun Trusts or buy your NFA Gun Trust here. What is an NFA firearm? A NFA Firearm is a firearm that is regulated...

www.nationalguntrusts.com

Photo/fingerprints/questionaire are required from everyone for "every NFA firearms purchase." They are not required to add them after the fact.

 

[outrider58]

Photo/fingerprints/questionaire are required from everyone for "every NFA firearms purchase." They are not required to add them after the fact.

You lost me at "after the fact".

 

[calicojack]

This is true but one can also be helpful in case of your death, disqualifying conviction, etc. You can also think of it as a will for your NFA items.

Yes. This is one reason I like using a trust.

 

[calicojack]

You lost me at "after the fact".

My understanding is that if you only have to have fingerprints and photo for each "responsible person" at the time the application for the stamp is made. If you add another "responsible person" after approval, you don't have to submit their photo or fingerprints after the fact. But IANAL.

 

[outrider58]

My understanding is that if you only have to have fingerprints and photo for each "responsible person" at the time the application for the stamp is made. If you add another "responsible person" after approval, you don't have to submit their photo or fingerprints after the fact. But IANAL.

Thank you calicojack, for the clarification. It's a fine distinction(I think). I always thought that after July 13th, 2016, anyone added to your trust was required to submit prints and pics in the event of a new purchase. If I was to add a new item to my trust today, wouldn't I need to submit prints and pics, along with the other existing trustees?