Laser or laser/light combo?

[seawolf823]

Another vote for light without laser. I run the streamlight TLR-1 HL and surefire x300 ultra

 

[smokey]

Ok, here's a look at what a room looks like as a 300 lumen TLR1S illuminates it from the ceiling, wall, and floor splash. No other lights were on and it was pitch black without the TLR turned on. Notice that it's plenty to pick up pretty much everything in a relatively large room(The wall the windows are on is 21' wide). This is why I don't necessarily fall into the camp of people that want a light that tops out at 60-100 lumens(although having a low-lumen setting of 20-60 lumens on a handheld light is great as an option to preserve night vision and battery life). Lights that put out below about 200 lumens or so don't really fill the room that well with splash(the tlr3 I have is noticeably dimmer with more dark-spots in the corners).

There is a crossover point that makes ever-increasing lumen output more of a burden than a benefit for me. The reasons are that too much is unnecessary when your pupils are already dilated and the more lumens, the shorter the battery life. The 300 lumens on the tlr1 is a pretty nice sweet spot for me for my HD guns. It's bright enough to fill a room with splash, but not too bright to fry night vision completely or to burn up batteries quick. The 300 lumen TLR1 has a 2.5 hour battery life. The HL is really bright, at 630 lumens, but is just too much for indoors and shortens battery life to 1.25 hours.

If you were outside, or planning on using your WML to search a larger space...like a warehouse or something...then the greater output may come in handy...but not for HD in my mind. However, for a rifle that may be used in wider spaces....
http://www.lapolicegear.com/st-tlr1-hpl.html
this thing gets my attention a little. The only things I don't like about the TLR's are that you need to tighten them to the rail by turning the adjustment screw, instead of just slipping the thing on like the surefires, and the plastic tailcap switch. The tailcap on mine broke when I was changing out batteries. It was probably user error, as I probably should've been more careful before closing the lever thinger, but I snapped the tailcap where the crosspin holds it to the latch. It's no biggie, since I just had a new tailcap shipped to me for like $10 or something, but it seems like a weak spot to point out.

For holsters, I picked up a light holster by persec and have been pretty happy with it. It's not exactly super-stealthy concealable....but with a gun the size of a brick, it's comfortable for wearing owb and does hide ok with a concealment garment.
http://persecsystems.com/

 

[bohman]

Thanks for the pics Smokey. I'm shopping for a light and that's really helpful. I have a feeling I'm going to agree with you on the light output. Anything more than that would have me blinded if it's on when my eyes are completely adjusted to darkness. Your first picture, with the light aimed at the ceiling, does NOT look like the TLR is the only light on in the room. When I first glanced at it, I assumed the picture was just to show what the light looked like on the gun, not that it was in use. Pretty impressive.

 

[DaftPict]

YMMV, but my personal choice was to go with Viridian C5L (light & green laser) for both my wife's and my home defense guns. We both like the brightness of the light, the instant on when we remove them from the viridian holsters, and the visibility of the laser even with the light on. You can set them up to start in any configuration of light,laser, strobe, you want but can easily switch them on/off if needed with the button.
We practiced once at the range with the laser to get a feel, but otherwise practice with it off to not get any bad habits.
Checking the batteries (on all gun optics) is part of my monthly firearm maintenance and about twice a year I check the laser alignment with a boresite laser keeping the lasers parallel so I know the impact point is about 1" above the laser - good enough for defensive center of mass shots with worrying about distances.
BTW I got mine on separate Amazon sales, each for ~$100+ under store prices. The ONLY downside is that they only sell holsters for a limited number of common pistols, but I have seen a couple of holster sites where they could add the instant-on to one of their own holsters.

 

[yugoM57]

ramlite makes good combos for any guns

 

[zoostation]

YMMV, but my personal choice was to go with Viridian C5L (light & green laser) for both my wife's and my home defense guns. We both like the brightness of the light, the instant on when we remove them from the viridian holsters, and the visibility of the laser even with the light on. You can set them up to start in any configuration of light,laser, strobe, you want but can easily switch them on/off if needed with the button.
We practiced once at the range with the laser to get a feel, but otherwise practice with it off to not get any bad habits.
Checking the batteries (on all gun optics) is part of my monthly firearm maintenance and about twice a year I check the laser alignment with a boresite laser keeping the lasers parallel so I know the impact point is about 1" above the laser - good enough for defensive center of mass shots with worrying about distances.
BTW I got mine on separate Amazon sales, each for ~$100+ under store prices. The ONLY downside is that they only sell holsters for a limited number of common pistols, but I have seen a couple of holster sites where they could add the instant-on to one of their own holsters.

Full disclosure, I have a business relationship with Viridian.

That being said, the holster switch kit is also available individually to go in any holsters. It's just basically a small flexible magnet switch that can be sewn or glued in. Should cost well under 20 bucks and any IP who is a Viridian dealer (cough, cough Freestate, cough) can order one for you. I think very highly of Viridian after working with them for several years.

 

[myright]

I am old school light in week hand -gun in strong hand.

What if you have to use your off hand to hold some one back or fight someone.

 

[Blaster229]

What if you have to use your off hand to hold some one back or fight someone.

Then you are not worrying about a light of any sort because you are protecting your face from being crushed in.

 

[myright]

Then you are not worrying about a light of any sort because you are protecting your face from being crushed in.

what I meant was a weapon mounted light can free your of hand in case you need to use it.

 

[Blaster229]

what I meant was a weapon mounted light can free your of hand in case you need to use it.

I think I misunderstood.

 

[smokey]

What if you have to use your off hand to hold some one back or fight someone.

The handheld light will fill your hand and make your strikes land a little heavier. You can also strike with the light itself(although I'm not a fan of crenulated bezels....who wants some dirty criminal's blood all over them?). By that time, you won't really be wondering where the threat is or what their intentions are, so you could be working to create the space needed to plug some shots into them with the gun-side. You could also use the handheld light to their face to disorient them. Some basic light use in self defense is to flash a potential attacker's face(screwing their nightvision) and then move back and off line....or attack while they can't really see well. Worst case, just click the light on and drop it. The splash off the walls will be enough for you to work with during the grappling and it'll free your hand.

Handheld lights are so cheap these days, there's not much of a reason to have either the WML or the handheld...have both, give yourself options. One example would be if you were able to get the family together and barricaded behind a door with threats in the house. You could turn on a handheld light and lay it on a table/chair/whatever with the light shining at the door....then move off to a position of advantage in the room. Should someone break in to the room, you'd be able to see them, but their wouldn't be able to see you. Their attention would be drawn to the light and even if they tried looking around for you, the light would hide you behind it like moses was hidden behind the big fireball so the egytians couldn't see their movements at night.

As for not having a handheld and exclusively using a WML, it wouldn't really change anything during the struggle. You're likely not going to be turning the light on or off while trying to fight, so it'd stay in whatever condition it was in when the contact was made(which theoretically should be OFF, as you generally should only use the light in a quick momentary scan before turning it off).

....example setup of remote light illuminating an entrance while you're back in the dark in another location....

 

[IgotAgun]

Just for some opinions on laser v. laser/light combo. In particular, the Lasermax Micro v. TLR-2.

I like the TLR-2, but it was pointed out that when using the flashlight, wherever the flashlight goes, the barrel goes that direction too. I know, duh! But, if i just want to illuminate, i dont want the barrel pointed in that direction. I like the mechanism for engaging the laser and light... It requires constant pressure.

The Lasermax is lighter, but I hate having to turn the laser on and off.

Training will eliminate either one of my concerns, but was wondering what y'all use?

If its a really small self defense gun like an LCP, or you are using a suppressor, which can make aiming difficult, then I think a laser is fine. Otherwise I say light only.

 

[fred333]

One example would be if you were able to get the family together and barricaded behind a door with threats in the house. You could turn on a handheld light and lay it on a table/chair/whatever with the light shining at the door....then move off to a position of advantage in the room. Should someone break in to the room, you'd be able to see them, but their wouldn't be able to see you. Their attention would be drawn to the light and even if they tried looking around for you, the light would hide you behind it like moses was hidden behind the big fireball so the egytians couldn't see their movements at night.

 

[smokey]

http://www.breachbangclear.com/lumens-matter-but-they-dont/
BBC's take on it. It's a super simplistic post on it, but has some good considerations.

 

[Minuteman]

Excellent thread. A lot of people are very interested in this topic, you did a great job of covering the most important points and gave an excellent link with Mad Duo's comments.

 

[Wayne1one]

Light only!

 

[RangerWillrett]

I have the protec elite combo... and I love it. The light is great and the laser as held zero after a couple hundred rounds. After I shoot or remove the protec I always realign the laser just to be sure but its usually fine. It has been well worth the $80 I spent on it at walmart.