Larry Vickers bans appendix carry

[DC-W]

"Accident waiting to happen when you add in a pistol like a glock or M&P "
What exactly are you trying to say? What makes them more dangerous for appendix carry than other brands?

The trigger is the safety on both of those. There's substantially less forgiveness in regards to the trigger with these than say, a DA pistol or something with external safeties.

He could be insinuating that there's an increased risk of snagging something inside the trigger guard while repeatedly drawing from appendix. That'd be my guess. One less thing for him and other instructors to worry about when dealing with students of varying skill levels.

 

[lilgibby]

Why? Because in the name of safety he doesn't want weekend commandos shooting themselves or other's during a class, so his instruction has now become irrelevant?

I have MANY co workers who carry this way but they train A LOT and are drilled and skilled in drawing, shooting and re-hosltering this way for their career.
Most gun class students, not so much.

This.

 

[Biggfoot44]

There are a lot of Legitimite Carry Methods tht are disproved for specific classes , and for that matter from use at a lot of ranges.

Some of those methods may well be suitable for real world use , but not suitable in specific range environments.

Two different questions , two different sets of answers.

 

[rico903]

The trigger is the safety on both of those. There's substantially less forgiveness in regards to the trigger with these than say, a DA pistol or something with external safeties.

He could be insinuating that there's an increased risk of snagging something inside the trigger guard while repeatedly drawing from appendix. That'd be my guess. One less thing for him and other instructors to worry about when dealing with students of varying skill levels.

This. And DAO triggers are safer unless lightened. It just take one numbskull to ruin his business and more likely to happen with pistols like he mentioned. Most indoor ranges ban it also so there has to be a reason. For one you are sweeping the person next to you.

 

[Minuteman]

A few first thoughts:

The diagram- what the? I enjoy shooting but not that much. Also, anyone who's ever seen a medical book know where their femoral artery really is.

Larry Vickors- knows his stuff. And if he's simply notifying people that he won't accept 'open enrollment' students (meaning people he doesn't know/trust) to appendix carry during his official classes, then good on him for making a public announcement.

DC-W- I like your style and keeping it real (honest).

Appendix carry- if well trained, is one of the best carry methods; but doesn't work for every gun (smaller guns generally better) or body shape (us fat guys can't carry appx).

Glock/M&P- I'm certain Larry means that their lighter striker fired triggers make the possibility of a negligent discharge (ND), somewhat greater for people without good trigger discipline (keep finger off trigger until sights are coming on target).

 

[Blaster229]

The problem is a few things, no safety or "lighter trigger" aren't either problem.
Drawing...People getting their finger on the trigger too early, faster than they can handle a pistol. This is neither a no safety or trigger issue, it's finger discipline.

Holstering.. People have a difficult time doing something at 20% right after doing something at 110%. So they try getting back in the holster just as fast. No need for it. Absolutely no rush getting back into the holster.
An instructor calling the line could slow the firing cadence down as well. But far from their issue.
Speed = as fast as you can do something safely.

Clearing the holster. Hand/finger sweep everything before getting it in there. If you need to look at it, then do so. Again, there's never a competition to see who can do it fastest. Tactile.

To say a lighter trigger will go off faster than a heavier trigger may be true, but a handful of shirt should not be holstered with either one.

Operator error each and every time.

 

[swinokur]

spot on Blaster

 

[pwoolford]

This crap has been all over the net for the last week. Couple of things to consider:

1. AFAIK, LAV doesn't do a dedicated conceal carry class a la Mike Pannone, Jeff Gonzales, etc. You take his classes to get better at shooting, not drawing and re-holstering.

2. Mike Pannone just instituted a similar policy. NO AIWB for his handgun classes, only his Covert Carry class, and he will vet you and your gear at the start of class.
3. Similar policy for Jeff Gonzales.
4. His class, his rules. Don't like it, take your training $ elsewhere. He'll still fill his classes without issue. Class coming up in York in October was already filled in January.

You going? I signed up last fall...though I may need to replace the Serpa before class if that is banned too.

 

[Blaster229]

You going? I signed up last fall...though I may need to replace the Serpa before class if that is banned too.

If you aren't sweating the retention of a Serpa, get a Fobus. I have been using one (roto paddle) for many years, the same one and it's held up. The older original. The newer "evolution" models are even more robust and sturdy.
But all the fancy range boys use blade techs.

 

[Pretoria78]

Appendix carry- if well trained, is one of the best carry methods; but doesn't work for every gun (smaller guns generally better) or body shape (us fat guys can't carry appx).

I carry a Glock 17 AIWB on a daily basis w/o any issue, but admit I'm 6'4". It's definitely the most unforgiving method of carry, and an error or singular lapse in judgment can be fatal. You must use a purpose made holster, such as a CCC Shaggy, JM Custom Kydex or other purpose built offering from a reputable, quality holster maker. You want the trigger to be completely covered, so as to remove the possibility of an article of clothing finding its way into the holster. Also, when drawing you cannot afford to be sloppy regarding index finger placement, and when holstering, performing a hard break, with slow and deliberate movements, ensuring that there is nothing inside of the holster that could actuate the trigger.

 

[pwoolford]

If you aren't sweating the retention of a Serpa, get a Fobus. I have been using one (roto paddle) for many years, the same one and it's held up. The older original. The newer "evolution" models are even more robust and sturdy.
But all the fancy range boys use blade techs.

I'll check out the Fobus...don't think I have one of those yet. I did pickup a Safariland to use with a weapon light and it is a decent holster. The thumb break was pretty natural so it didn't screw me up much when switching back and forth. Just annoyed because I've used serpas for years and have over a dozen for different guns and belt setups.

 

[Blaster229]

I'll check out the Fobus...don't think I have one of those yet. I did pickup a Safariland to use with a weapon light and it is a decent holster. The thumb break was pretty natural so it didn't screw me up much when switching back and forth. Just annoyed because I've used serpas for years and have over a dozen for different guns and belt setups.

I love Serpas for the mere fact they are the most stable paddle holster out there. That very wide "paddle" and the belt prongs cinching down, no way that holster is coming out.

 

[swinokur]

Not to mention that huge claw hook on the bottom.

 

[axshon]

I remember when a few of us first qualified with the M9 in the Marines since it was out T/O weapon but we hadn't worked with it in boot camp or SOI at all. We were just practicing draws etc (empty weapons) with those old crappy nylon green velcro duty holsters. No big deal but at qualifying we had to keep the weapon holstered with a magazine inserted, then draw, make ready and fire on command. Some guy chambered a round before holstering and shot the dirt as he was drawing. He was written up. In the end I believe he was totally psyched to be on the line and qualifying with a pistol. He lost a certain amount of fine motor control and stopped thinking because he was excited. He damn hear shot a toe or two off. He was lucky his stupid didn't cost him more than office hours.

My point is that in a class scenario, I can imagine a person with visions of daring rescues in their mind getting all worked up and trying to draw fast before they have the muscle memory or catching a bit of t-shirt when holstering. Reminds me of the news story of the fella whose seat belt caught and discharged in his car hitting his femoral artery. He bled to death with his kids in the back seat watching. I'm not a fan of ever having a loaded weapon on my body pointed AT my body. (Since I'm in MD I don't have to worry about it.) If you can do it great but it breaks one of the cardinal rules in my book.

In the end, his class = his rules.

 

[DC-W]

The problem is a few things, no safety or "lighter trigger" aren't either problem.
Drawing...People getting their finger on the trigger too early, faster than they can handle a pistol. This is neither a no safety or trigger issue, it's finger discipline.

Holstering.. People have a difficult time doing something at 20% right after doing something at 110%. So they try getting back in the holster just as fast. No need for it. Absolutely no rush getting back into the holster.
An instructor calling the line could slow the firing cadence down as well. But far from their issue.
Speed = as fast as you can do something safely.

Clearing the holster. Hand/finger sweep everything before getting it in there. If you need to look at it, then do so. Again, there's never a competition to see who can do it fastest. Tactile.

To say a lighter trigger will go off faster than a heavier trigger may be true, but a handful of shirt should not be holstered with either one.

Operator error each and every time.

These two for sure!!!

 

[hogarth]

You going? I signed up last fall...though I may need to replace the Serpa before class if that is banned too.

No, not going. Was considering it but then I saw it was filled. I've got Combative handgun II with Jeff Gonzales in August, and I'm training with Pannone again in October up in CT for his Street and Vehicle class. That will probably do it for the year, unless I sneak into a CMCT class. Next year priorities will be Defoor, Jacques, maybe PMAC, and Howe again if he offers the advanced Urban Defense class he's been talking about. Obviously, timing and locations of all the above will be the driving factors.

FWIW, I mostly carry AIWB and love it. But I don't go to classes to argue with the instructors about how I like to carry. I go to learn. I can get plenty of draw stroke practice at home.

 

[DC-W]

I know Rob Pincus goes AIWB. Dunno if he teaches it in his courses.

 

[BigT5g]

AIWB is a great method, but I don't fault LV for banning it. Limiting to strong side draw during classes doesn't really diminish the level and quality of training, and if it adds to the students' safety as well as the instructors' comfort level then by all means...
Take what you learn from the class and apply it to your choice of carry method.
Choosing not to attend his class just because of this rule is simply doing yourself and your skill level a disservice.

 

[Blaster229]

No, not going. Was considering it but then I saw it was filled. I've got Combative handgun II with Jeff Gonzales in August, and I'm training with Pannone again in October up in CT for his Street and Vehicle class. That will probably do it for the year, unless I sneak into a CMCT class. Next year priorities will be Defoor, Jacques, maybe PMAC, and Howe again if he offers the advanced Urban Defense class he's been talking about. Obviously, timing and locations of all the above will be the driving factors.

All you need now is Costa Instructor ZERO and you would have made the circuit

 

[Gryphon]

At least that one student won't have to worry about shaving their junk for a while, between the E.R. staff and the muzzle blast...

Hey, it could have been worse, "missed it by that ' ' much!"