Ishapore 2A1

[asdaven]

I've been looking at these but was wondering if they're legal in Maryland? Dosent the Ishapore 2a1 have a 12 round magazine? I know the rule only applies to Semi-Auto rifles mostly and technically the 12 round magazine is a fixed magazine because it's not INTENDED to be used that way other than for cleaning and dissassembly of the rifle. But, still it's removable. Don't know if that counts as a detachable magazine over the 10 round capacity limit?

Thanks-

 

[jimbobborg]

I need to check mine, then, as I didn't even try to get more than 10 rounds in it.

 

[j8064]

Could be either 10 or 12 round. Mine holds 12 which makes it evil. I've had it for years and it's always behaved...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishapore_2A1_rifle

 

[Abulg1972]

I've been looking at these but was wondering if they're legal in Maryland? Dosent the Ishapore 2a1 have a 12 round magazine? I know the rule only applies to Semi-Auto rifles mostly and technically the 12 round magazine is a fixed magazine because it's not INTENDED to be used that way other than for cleaning and dissassembly of the rifle. But, still it's removable. Don't know if that counts as a detachable magazine over the 10 round capacity limit?

Thanks-

I can't speak to this particular firearm, but I can speak to two misunderstandings in your post. First, the law's scope is not limited to semi-automatic firearms. It covers any firearm that uses a "detachable magazine", including an antique (e.g., Swiss Model 1889). Second, whether or not the magazine was "intended" to be removable is not part of the law and is irrelevant. The definition of "detachable magazine" is a ammunition feeding device that "can be removed readily . . . without requiring disassembly of the firearm action or without the use of a tool, including a bullet or cartridge."

My view on the law, and I studied and analyzed it carefully when attempting to receive a Swiss Model 1899, is this: if your firearm has a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds and can be removed without a tool - whether or not it was intended as a "detachable magazine" - you should steer clear of its importation.

 

[Bertfish]

If you remove the magazine can it be loaded or do the rounds simply fall out? If it can be loaded separate from the rifle I'd say it could safely be called "detachable"

 

[Bertfish]

I can't speak to this particular firearm, but I can speak to two misunderstandings in your post. First, the law's scope is not limited to semi-automatic firearms. It covers any firearm that uses a "detachable magazine", including an antique (e.g., Swiss Model 1889). Second, whether or not the magazine was "intended" to be removable is not part of the law and is irrelevant. The definition of "detachable magazine" is a ammunition feeding device that "can be removed readily . . . without requiring disassembly of the firearm action or without the use of a tool, including a bullet or cartridge."

My view on the law, and I studied and analyzed it carefully when attempting to receive a Swiss Model 1899, is this: if your firearm has a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds and can be removed without a tool - whether or not it was intended as a "detachable magazine" - you should steer clear of its importation.

I'd agree with this as well. If it takes toolage to get the magazine out that can hardly be called detachable

 

[Abulg1972]

If you remove the magazine can it be loaded or do the rounds simply fall out? If it can be loaded separate from the rifle I'd say it could safely be called "detachable"

That's not the law.

If the magazine can be readily removed without the use of a tool, it's a detachable magazine. The law was poorly thought through and, in my opinion, made intentionally broad.

As a side note, I and another lawyer are working with a legislator to add an exception to the prohibition for magazines designed for use in an "antique firearm". To date, the only antique firearm with a "detachable magazine" holding more than 10 rounds that I have been able to identify is a Swiss Model 1889. I note that the Swiss did not intend for the magazine to be used as a detachable magazine in the sense that we normally think about. They made it removable so that it could be cleaned. It is, nevertheless, a "detachable magazine" under our stupid law. If anyone can identify any other antique firearm with a 10+ round mag, let me know.

 

[Bertfish]

That's not the law.

If the magazine can be readily removed without the use of a tool, it's a detachable magazine. The law was poorly thought through and, in my opinion, made intentionally broad.

You are correct, I did not recall the bit about it being "readily" removable as the only criteria.

And yes, it does seem intentionally broad and designed to potentially ensnare as many people as possible. Thus is life in the People's Republic.

 

[asdaven]

Well yeah its a detachable magazine then. Theres the 2A and the 2A1....I think the 2A has a 10 round capacity and the 2A1, 12 rounds. This is a shame that this law catches some antique and C&R bolt action rifles. I guess it bans the Mauser "trench" mags too. Only way I could see possible getting a 2a1 is buying one with the magazine removed and without it included in the sale. Then find a source out of state to buy just the magazine. Darn, I thought it was only semi-autos that the magazine regulations applied to.

 

[Abulg1972]

Well yeah its a detachable magazine then. Theres the 2A and the 2A1....I think the 2A has a 10 round capacity and the 2A1, 12 rounds. This is a shame that this law catches some antique and C&R bolt action rifles. I guess it bans the Mauser "trench" mags too. Only way I could see possible getting a 2a1 is buying one with the magazine removed and without it included in the sale. Then find a source out of state to buy just the magazine. Darn, I thought it was only semi-autos that the magazine regulations applied to.

You don't have to exclude the magazine from the sale. The law doesn't prohibit someone from selling a detachable magazine to you. The law just prohibits them from shipping it to you (and you from receiving it) in the state. You just need to find a seller who is willing to ship the magazine separately to a friend or relative in another state, and then pick it up at your convenience.

We are toying with the idea of drafting an amendment that would cover not just antiques but C&R stuff as well but we fear that might be pressing our luck.

Hopefully, all this angst will be rendered moot when the Fourth Circuit reverses the United States District Court in Kolbe. .

 

[dontpanic]

It applies to all magazines, internal or removable. There is no carve out for tool or tool less removal. The only exception is for internal rimfire magazines like on the marlin mdl 60.

 

[Abulg1972]

It applies to all magazines, internal or removable. There is no carve out for tool or tool less removal. The only exception is for internal rimfire magazines like on the marlin mdl 60.

False. In interpreting the law, one must start with the definitions that apply. If an ammunition feeding device is not readily removable with a tool or bullet, it is not a "detachable magazine" and is not prohibited. The exemption for a 22 rimfire tubular magazine is ridiculously stupid and an oversight by the General Assembly. If you look at that exemption, it actually exempts a rimfire RIFLE with a tubular magazine. Just stupid. This is what happens when we entrust our rights to people who know nothing about them.

 

[dontpanic]

False. In interpreting the law, one must start with the definitions that apply. If an ammunition feeding device is not readily removable with a tool or bullet, it is not a "detachable magazine" and is not prohibited. The exemption for a 22 rimfire tubular magazine is ridiculously stupid and an oversight by the General Assembly. If you look at that exemption, it actually exempts a rimfire RIFLE with a tubular magazine. Just stupid. This is what happens when we entrust our rights to people who know nothing about them.

Thanks. I just looked it up again. It had been a while.

http://www.scotts-gunsmithing.com/important-maryland-firearm-laws/

It does state semi auto rifle with fixed mag cap over 10rds. This stuff always makes my head hurt.

 

[Abulg1972]

Thanks. I just looked it up again. It had been a while.



http://www.scotts-gunsmithing.com/important-maryland-firearm-laws/



It does state semi auto rifle with fixed mag cap over 10rds. This stuff always makes my head hurt.

Gun grabbers who know nothing about guns. You can thank the voters.

http://youtu.be/iJmFEv6BHM0

 

[Abulg1972]

Thanks. I just looked it up again. It had been a while.



http://www.scotts-gunsmithing.com/important-maryland-firearm-laws/



It does state semi auto rifle with fixed mag cap over 10rds. This stuff always makes my head hurt.

With all due respect to the author of that website, you could legally purchase a magazine that holds 876 rounds as long as it is not readily removable with a tool or bullet.

People make this harder than it needs to be.

 

[j8064]

So far I've stayed out of this discussion except for my sarcastic remark about my Ishy being evil because its "technically removable" magazine holds 12 rounds.

Even the need to discuss whether or not a BATFE defined Curio & Relic firearm musters to the "intent" of SB281 is sheer lunacy. But, that's what we've been reduced to in Marylandistan.

I believe Abulg1972 is correct in his explanation of detachable magazine definition under current MD statute. IANAL, but I understand the language of SB281 the same.

OP, your best bet is NOT have an Ishy with a > 10 round mag delivered to you in MD. Have the mag sent to a location out of MD and go pick it up from there. Either that, or buy an Ishy with a C&R license across a MD border.

As Abulg1972 states, a Swiss Model 1889 is another example of stupidity: Because, although it's an antique, it's design includes a detachable mag > 10 rounds.

Stupid? Yes...

P.S. Abulg1972: Work hard on that exception for an 1889... me wants one...

 

[asdaven]

You don't have to exclude the magazine from the sale. The law doesn't prohibit someone from selling a detachable magazine to you. The law just prohibits them from shipping it to you (and you from receiving it) in the state. You just need to find a seller who is willing to ship the magazine separately to a friend or relative in another state, and then pick it up at your convenience.

We are toying with the idea of drafting an amendment that would cover not just antiques but C&R stuff as well but we fear that might be pressing our luck.

Hopefully, all this angst will be rendered moot when the Fourth Circuit reverses the United States District Court in Kolbe. .

Hopefully. Most of the regulations are on semi-automatics. Too bad the exemption on magazines couldn't extend to all NON- semiautomatic firearms. Particularly the few bolt action rifles that exist with over 10 round magazines. There's the antique Swiss 1889 rifle you mentioned, then the C&R Ishapore 2a1 which is basically a classic Lee Enfield but redesigned for 7.62 NATO. There's also 20 round Trench Mags they made for Mausers in WWI. Probably a real one is hard to find, but Sarco sells reproduction ones. Don't know if they made 98 Mausers from the factory with Trench mags or if it was a later military retrofit kit they created to replace the floor plate with a detachable magazine. But def not a new thing compared to the detachable mags they're making for Mosin Nagant and are for certain historical. But, again these Trench mags were meant to be fed with stripper clips from the top and not changing mags.

 

[Abulg1972]

So far I've stayed out of this discussion except for my sarcastic remark about my Ishy being evil because its "technically removable" magazine holds 12 rounds.

Even the need to discuss whether or not a BATFE defined Curio & Relic firearm musters to the "intent" of SB281 is sheer lunacy. But, that's what we've been reduced to in Marylandistan.

I believe Abulg1972 is correct in his explanation of detachable magazine definition under current MD statute. IANAL, but I understand the language of SB281 the same.

OP, your best bet is NOT have an Ishy with a > 10 round mag delivered to you in MD. Have the mag sent to a location out of MD and go pick it up from there. Either that, or buy an Ishy with a C&R license across a MD border.

As Abulg1972 states, a Swiss Model 1889 is another example of stupidity: Because, although it's an antique, it's design includes a detachable mag > 10 rounds.

Stupid? Yes...

P.S. Abulg1972: Work hard on that exception for an 1889... me wants one...

But be comforted in the fact that you can't be prosecuted for making a loaded antique firearm accessible to a minor. Don't allow us to buy a complete Swiss Model 1889 for which no one makes ammo, but let my kid shoot up the house with my Argentine M1891 made in 1894.

 

[asdaven]

So far I've stayed out of this discussion except for my sarcastic remark about my Ishy being evil because its "technically removable" magazine holds 12 rounds.

Even the need to discuss whether or not a BATFE defined Curio & Relic firearm musters to the "intent" of SB281 is sheer lunacy. But, that's what we've been reduced to in Marylandistan.

I believe Abulg1972 is correct in his explanation of detachable magazine definition under current MD statute. IANAL, but I understand the language of SB281 the same.

OP, your best bet is NOT have an Ishy with a > 10 round mag delivered to you in MD. Have the mag sent to a location out of MD and go pick it up from there. Either that, or buy an Ishy with a C&R license across a MD border.

As Abulg1972 states, a Swiss Model 1889 is another example of stupidity: Because, although it's an antique, it's design includes a detachable mag > 10 rounds.

Stupid? Yes...

P.S. Abulg1972: Work hard on that exception for an 1889... me wants one...

Yeah but I think it's illegal to buy a firearm out of state when a >10 round capacity magazine is transferred with the firearm cause it turns it into a regulated firearm and you cant get around that part of the law out of state. But it's not illegal to buy the magazine by itself out of state. That's my understanding of the law.

 

[Abulg1972]

Yeah but I think it's illegal to buy a firearm out of state when a >10 round capacity magazine is transferred with the firearm cause it turns it into a regulated firearm and you cant get around that part of the law out of state. But it's not illegal to buy the magazine by itself out of state. That's my understanding of the law.

No.

There is a "regulated firearm" and there a "detachable magazine" holding more than 10 rounds. They are two separate, unrelated things.

It is perfectly legal, for example, for an 03 FFL from MD to buy a CZ82 (with a 12 round magazine) in PA. It is perfectly legal for any MD resident to buy a rifle from a PA FFL that has a 875 round magazine. What the law prohibits is the sale or receipt, in MD, of a "detachable magazine" that holds more than 10 rounds.