has anyone defended themselves with a knife?

[magnumpi]

I never defended myself with a knife but had one used on me. I was at a friends party and a couple of guys got into a scuffle which I helped break up (1st mistake). They were asked to leave. They didn't want to comply so I "helped" one of them into the back of the car he came in. He then decided he still wasn't ready to leave so he came out with a knife and stuck it in my right forearm. I guess adrenaline (and stupidity) kicked in and I went after him and managed to disarm him and beat the crap out of him until others pulled me off and he and his friends made their getaway. He ended up in the hospital where he was arrested.

I ended up having to have surgery to repair nerve/muscle damage. I guess I was lucky that I instinctively blocked with my forearm and didn't end up with the knife in my chest. Unbelievably he was later found not guilty in court because he played the victim and the jury felt sorry for him because he came out in worse shape in the end. The prosecutor also didn't try very hard in my opinion, because he was already in jail for other charges by the time my case came around. He later said we don't win em all but they usually wind up in jail in the end.

 

[Semper Noctem]

Just pointing this quote out because this is such a common occurrence in knife attacks, where the victim mistakes stabs for hand strikes. Saw it happen sometimes on the job (saw a security guard almost code out once while he was talking to us, not realizing a shoplifter had stabbed him in the chest). Israelis also have documented this phenomenon well, especially during street attacks during the intifada.

I took a blade to the belly when I was in college, and didn’t realize I had been stuck until my shirt began to feel wet from blood loss.

 

[J-Dog]

Someone once told me something like "The loser of a knife fight dies at the scene. The winner of a knife fight dies on the way to the hospital."

I don't know how true that is, but hearing some of these stories, it seems pretty darn plausible.

I've never had to defend myself with my knife (currently carry a Gerber Instant) and I hope I never do.

 

[LONGSHOT]

one nite i made a peanut and jelly sandwich and my wife came out in to the kitchen and wanted it i olny had to treaten her with the butter knife but i lost,she got half.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Farther removed from me personally , but once upon a decade there was an incident at an American Legion post in Md.

Individual #1 had a habit of have a bunch drinks , and then pulling a Buck 110 and threatening people. One day he did this to another member who was more skilled in knife fighting. #1 was dead at the scene , #2 was ruled justifiable self defense.

 

[wilcam47]

Not me but my wife had to pull a knife on a guy at the motel laundry in Waldorf where we stayed in when we first moved to MD. Black guy pulled out his junk and said something to her to which she replied something to the effect of "ill cut that off and feed it to you". he took off she called me and I ran down from the room with my pistol but he was gone already.. such a nice welcome to MD

 

[redhawk_hj]

what are the legalities for carrying a knife in MD... do different rules apply for fixed or folded? is there certain criteria your knife must be in to allow you to carry it inside your pocket or must it be "visible" or "clipped" onto your pocket? I know this is a little off topic but this is the most relevant thread to my question

 

[dapefley]

redhawk, as far as I have been able to find, MD law states that any folder is allowed to be concealed, no matter what the size is. On the other hand, any fixed blade must be visable, ie, not even your shirt can cover it. As far as transporting, I am really not too sure what the law states as far as having a fixed in your car. I normally keep my Benchmade Bedlam 860 in the car, just in case, and at 4", it is plenty of knife.

Someone that is more versed than me, please chime in.

Currently I carry a Kershaw Blur and at about 3.5", I think it is enough knife.

 

[redhawk_hj]

redhawk, as far as I have been able to find, MD law states that any folder is allowed to be concealed, no matter what the size is. On the other hand, any fixed blade must be visable, ie, not even your shirt can cover it. As far as transporting, I am really not too sure what the law states as far as having a fixed in your car. I normally keep my Benchmade Bedlam 860 in the car, just in case, and at 4", it is plenty of knife.

Someone that is more versed than me, please chime in.

Currently I carry a Kershaw Blur and at about 3.5", I think it is enough knife.

Thank you, I appreciate the input

 

[Roneut]

Yep you got it right, dapefley. Folders of any size, and no the clip does not have to be visible. Fixed has to be open carry. In a car, fixed has to be clearly stowed and/or inaccessible, such as in the trunk or deep inside a bag that is clearly out of reach of any passengers. There's no clear law on this though to the point that I have heard cops react numerous different ways to this and even argue with each other at the scene. The charge almost never "sticks" in court if the person was not doing anything suggesting violent intentions.

Back on the main topic, I have heard that display of a knife has a greater fear effect on people than a gun, though this information was gathered from robbery and sexual assault victims (they comply more often when threatened with a knife). There have been different speculations why this is. Some say that most people are familiar with being wounded by sharp objects through normal events of life, while very rarely is a person a gunshot survivor. Some say sharp objects awaken our primitive ancestors' fear of wild animals, while the gun is a recent and somewhat alien concept. Still others say that American movies and TV unconsciously teach us that guns kill you instantly and painlessly with just a little hole in your body while knives cause horrific and painful wounds with blood everywhere.

 

[Second Amendment]

what are the legalities for carrying a knife in MD... do different rules apply for fixed or folded? is there certain criteria your knife must be in to allow you to carry it inside your pocket or must it be "visible" or "clipped" onto your pocket? I know this is a little off topic but this is the most relevant thread to my question

You can carry any folder in or out of your pocket.

 

[ChrisEvo8]

Including balisongs?

 

[nomo613]

When I used to take martial arts classes, we used to practice knife defenses by putting on some old training gis and simulating knives with magic markers.

You can imagine what those gi jackets looked like...Pollack eat your heart out.

we use metal training pocket knives. every once in awhile when we spar, we put lipstick on our blades. the funniest is when a person finishes and has his color lipstick on his own shirt

 

[NickZac]

Someone once told me something like "The loser of a knife fight dies at the scene. The winner of a knife fight dies on the way to the hospital."

I don't know how true that is, but hearing some of these stories, it seems pretty darn plausible.

I've never had to defend myself with my knife (currently carry a Gerber Instant) and I hope I never do.

As a general rule, most schools of thought on the topic seem to argue that the best edged weapon defense is usually a hit-and-run whenever possible under the logic that the quicker one can make a last-ditch effort and escape, the more likely they are to survive or get by with minimal wounds. Given the situation has to be really, really, really bad to come to that point, I can understand the reasoning.

A single "controlled cut" properly executed is all that is needed to make that window for a safe escape and is what can assure the assailant is not going to chase/continue fighting. Good (folding) edged weapons are designed to perform in a fashion that makes the last-ditch practical by maximizing the damage that a single, controlled, focused cut inflicts. (This implies the user dials in on a prime area for incapacitation, such as the tendons or biceps on the strong hand if it is holding the opposing weapon.)

In terms of what happens to the "winner," I think the tools used play a major role here (not to undermine training.) I personally strongly prefer hawkbills and their derivatives due to the above reasons as they are, IMHO, best suited to this sort of defense style, and increase the chance of the good guy being able to escape or incapacitate before they are harmed beyond the ability to fight back. I think with smaller knives in the folding class, the 'slashing' a hawkbill performs is far better than a puncture wound of a straight blade (same thing of JHP v FMJ IMO.) An upswept tip like that on a Bowie blade is also good as the knife can be inverted and tip used to "back cut", which wickedly tears whatever it comes across.

Spyderco originally produced the ["White Hat"] Civilian/Matriarch for a Federal LE agency in which undercover LEOs could not carry firearms but could carry knives. At the time, it was one of only a few folding knives (and Spyderco's first) that were knives made to be used as a weapon and only as a weapon. The blade is made specifically to cut clothing including thick leather jackets/belts, extend reach further than a straight blade, allow limb manipulation/pain compliance through hooking, enable the use of 'prying' with the tip around tendons/eye socket/groin, and the tip is designed to 'bury' as it cuts to inflict a deeper, nastier wound that is much harder for an assailant to defend against and minimize damage once that tip makes contact with bad guy. There is no such thing as a "minor" cut with a Civilian, and there's no escaping the blade once it crosses over with the bad guy's limbs. It's IMO one of the most proven designs in a knife of that size for explicit usage as a weapon of self-defense. In the real world, the knife performs incredibly well and it does everything it is designed to do flawlessly. The Waved Matriarch, which was produced with the Emerson Wave, further improves upon the design giving the knife even faster deployment with all sorts of new carry options such as self-opening sheaths. IMHO someone's probability of survival increases a lot with that sort of knife and relevant information on correct usage...which is probably why so many LEOs (whom I presume can easily be targeted due to their work) carry one on a neck sheath 24-7-365.

James Keating once told me something along the lines of (paraphrasing as I do not remember the exact quote), 'if you wind up in a scenario in which you have to use a knife for self-defense, it is critical you have the right knife and you must know exactly what you are doing...as you may only have one opportunity before you are incapacitated or dead.' Given most bad guys aren't going to have the tools/techniques/skills to measurably stack up against someone capable in MBC, I think the user's own abilities to choose to have the proper edged weapon and the proper training is really what determines the outcome (and for me that is what justifies carrying a second folder and the money on the folding weapon and relevant learning/training.)

Back on the main topic, I have heard that display of a knife has a greater fear effect on people than a gun, though this information was gathered from robbery and sexual assault victims (they comply more often when threatened with a knife). There have been different speculations why this is. Some say that most people are familiar with being wounded by sharp objects through normal events of life, while very rarely is a person a gunshot survivor. Some say sharp objects awaken our primitive ancestors' fear of wild animals, while the gun is a recent and somewhat alien concept. Still others say that American movies and TV unconsciously teach us that guns kill you instantly and painlessly with just a little hole in your body while knives cause horrific and painful wounds with blood everywhere.

I would agree as it's referencing a strong set of psychological memories of first-hand experience. Not many people have been shot relative to how many people have accidentally cut themselves. Everyone has that painful memory of a kitchen or industrial or DIY injury that hurt like hell from a knife.

The visible profile, especially of true self-defense oriented folders like a Cold Steel Ti Lite XL, Emerson Super Karambit, Benchmade SOCP Dagger or CBK, Spyderco Szabo, Civilian, Matriarch, Kerahawk, etc. is frightening and intimidating. They say, "you are about to be hurt badly, and it's going to be beyond a painful you have ever known". I think the visible presentation can further be aided by how competent the user can deploy a knife...good deployment could send the message of willingness to defend and the ability to defend competently. All send the message to the attacker that the impending injuries are a lot more loss than a successful crime results in gain, and that the intended victim has been poorly chosen in a world where 99% of the remaining population isn't going to have the skill or ambition to fight back (and likely "win" [escape] after inflicting serious bodily harm.)

People also fear the sight of their own blood...even when blood loss is far less than what is considered life-threatening. Gaping wounds cause people to panic...often to the point of being physically ill or fainting. A single well-placed wound will quickly change intention and ambition.







I would strongly argue, however, that one using a folding knife as a self-defense weapon either carry a knife made specifically for self-defense, or maintain an EDC capable of self-defense and in an ideal condition for use as a defensive weapon (ex: sharp as a Xacto/utility razor knife, 100% functional, good slicing abilities and the ability to easy to go through clothing, carried in a place for practical deployment when in distress, good grip retention when bloody, etc.) Many EDC folders inherently lack many of these things or are just are not very practical when doubled-over with features (and there is almost always a trade-off), which is why I tend to prefer carrying a knife that is solely a weapon and not a general usage cutting tool which is not used for anything else whatsoever.

Where as Emerson himself has noted quite often that the purpose of a knife should always dictate selection, I think when a knife has the potential to be used for self-defense, this is even more important given many (possibly most) EDC folders are poor choices for self-defense, and consequently mean a lesser probability of survival in a SHTF situation.






...my personal 2 ¢...

 

[Biggfoot44]

And additionally bad guys with gun , like LE with guns , and civillians with guns, are likely to miss. ( Another discussion as to the comparitive percentages , but all are below 50% in any broad based stastics, usually well below.)

However , for a knife attack to even be an attack , even the dimest of assailents knows they have to get close. They may not have proper placement for instant death or incapacitation , but somebodies is overwhelmingly likely to get cut.

But when knives are employed without the cutee/ stabee knowing about it in advance , they are similar to .22lr and .25acp pistols. Once someone is in a combative mindset , and full of adreline , they won't notice unless they are instantly dead , or instantly physically icapacitated.

 

[photoracer]

Including balisongs?

NO according to the last time I looked at the law. Otherwise I would still be carrying one. 40 years ago when I came to MD that is what I carried. I forget at what point I had to switch. These days I usually try to appear more respectable and carry either a regular folder or an assisted folder with glassbreak and seatbelt cutters. Doubled edged blades are not legal either if I remember.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The relevant word in the statute is *Penknife* , and caselaw has defined that as any folding knife , of any size , wether carried folded or opened. But a Butterfly knife is a really big streatch to be a *common penknife* .

 

[photoracer]

As a general rule, most schools of thought on the topic seem to argue that the best edged weapon defense is usually a hit-and-run whenever possible under the logic that the quicker one can make a last-ditch effort and escape, the more likely they are to survive or get by with minimal wounds. Given the situation has to be really, really, really bad to come to that point, I can understand the reasoning.

A single "controlled cut" properly executed is all that is needed to make that window for a safe escape and is what can assure the assailant is not going to chase/continue fighting. Good (folding) edged weapons are designed to perform in a fashion that makes the last-ditch practical by maximizing the damage that a single, controlled, focused cut inflicts. (This implies the user dials in on a prime area for incapacitation, such as the tendons or biceps on the strong hand if it is holding the opposing weapon.)

In terms of what happens to the "winner," I think the tools used play a major role here (not to undermine training.) I personally strongly prefer hawkbills and their derivatives due to the above reasons as they are, IMHO, best suited to this sort of defense style, and increase the chance of the good guy being able to escape or incapacitate before they are harmed beyond the ability to fight back. I think with smaller knives in the folding class, the 'slashing' a hawkbill performs is far better than a puncture wound of a straight blade (same thing of JHP v FMJ IMO.) An upswept tip like that on a Bowie blade is also good as the knife can be inverted and tip used to "back cut", which wickedly tears whatever it comes across.

Spyderco originally produced the ["White Hat"] Civilian/Matriarch for a Federal LE agency in which undercover LEOs could not carry firearms but could carry knives. At the time, it was one of only a few folding knives (and Spyderco's first) that were knives made to be used as a weapon and only as a weapon. The blade is made specifically to cut clothing including thick leather jackets/belts, extend reach further than a straight blade, allow limb manipulation/pain compliance through hooking, enable the use of 'prying' with the tip around tendons/eye socket/groin, and the tip is designed to 'bury' as it cuts to inflict a deeper, nastier wound that is much harder for an assailant to defend against and minimize damage once that tip makes contact with bad guy. There is no such thing as a "minor" cut with a Civilian, and there's no escaping the blade once it crosses over with the bad guy's limbs. It's IMO one of the most proven designs in a knife of that size for explicit usage as a weapon of self-defense. In the real world, the knife performs incredibly well and it does everything it is designed to do flawlessly. The Waved Matriarch, which was produced with the Emerson Wave, further improves upon the design giving the knife even faster deployment with all sorts of new carry options such as self-opening sheaths. IMHO someone's probability of survival increases a lot with that sort of knife and relevant information on correct usage...which is probably why so many LEOs (whom I presume can easily be targeted due to their work) carry one on a neck sheath 24-7-365.

James Keating once told me something along the lines of (paraphrasing as I do not remember the exact quote), 'if you wind up in a scenario in which you have to use a knife for self-defense, it is critical you have the right knife and you must know exactly what you are doing...as you may only have one opportunity before you are incapacitated or dead.' Given most bad guys aren't going to have the tools/techniques/skills to measurably stack up against someone capable in MBC, I think the user's own abilities to choose to have the proper edged weapon and the proper training is really what determines the outcome (and for me that is what justifies carrying a second folder and the money on the folding weapon and relevant learning/training.)







I would agree as it's referencing a strong set of psychological memories of first-hand experience. Not many people have been shot relative to how many people have accidentally cut themselves. Everyone has that painful memory of a kitchen or industrial or DIY injury that hurt like hell from a knife.

The visible profile, especially of true self-defense oriented folders like a Cold Steel Ti Lite XL, Emerson Super Karambit, Benchmade SOCP Dagger or CBK, Spyderco Szabo, Civilian, Matriarch, Kerahawk, etc. is frightening and intimidating. They say, "you are about to be hurt badly, and it's going to be beyond a painful you have ever known". I think the visible presentation can further be aided by how competent the user can deploy a knife...good deployment could send the message of willingness to defend and the ability to defend competently. All send the message to the attacker that the impending injuries are a lot more loss than a successful crime results in gain, and that the intended victim has been poorly chosen in a world where 99% of the remaining population isn't going to have the skill or ambition to fight back (and likely "win" [escape] after inflicting serious bodily harm.)

People also fear the sight of their own blood...even when blood loss is far less than what is considered life-threatening. Gaping wounds cause people to panic...often to the point of being physically ill or fainting. A single well-placed wound will quickly change intention and ambition.







I would strongly argue, however, that one using a folding knife as a self-defense weapon either carry a knife made specifically for self-defense, or maintain an EDC capable of self-defense and in an ideal condition for use as a defensive weapon (ex: sharp as a Xacto/utility razor knife, 100% functional, good slicing abilities and the ability to easy to go through clothing, carried in a place for practical deployment when in distress, good grip retention when bloody, etc.) Many EDC folders inherently lack many of these things or are just are not very practical when doubled-over with features (and there is almost always a trade-off), which is why I tend to prefer carrying a knife that is solely a weapon and not a general usage cutting tool which is not used for anything else whatsoever.

Where as Emerson himself has noted quite often that the purpose of a knife should always dictate selection, I think when a knife has the potential to be used for self-defense, this is even more important given many (possibly most) EDC folders are poor choices for self-defense, and consequently mean a lesser probability of survival in a SHTF situation.






...my personal 2 ¢...

I fully agree. Just like a handgun you need to practice with a knife as much or more than a gun. I have always prefered slashing curved edges over stabbing blades because stabbing takes too much time. With a slashing blade you can get in and out quicker. Everytime I go to a gun show I stop and pickup and handle a few knives. I can tell within the first 2-3 seconds whether the knive has the balance and size I could use in a pinch. Does not matter the cost.

 

[ChrisEvo8]

NO according to the last time I looked at the law. Otherwise I would still be carrying one. 40 years ago when I came to MD that is what I carried. I forget at what point I had to switch. These days I usually try to appear more respectable and carry either a regular folder or an assisted folder with glassbreak and seatbelt cutters. Doubled edged blades are not legal either if I remember.

I hear many different things from many different people concerning butterfly knives. I know of a few knife stores that sell them openly and pretty much every gun show has them on display and sale as well. Either way it's more of a flashy knife and not really practical in a self defense situation considering most folders now deploy much faster with just a flick of the wrist or thumb.

 

[phidelta308]

to the OP:

1. Yes.
2. No, not at this time. When I get a copy of the police report, I'll probably post a redacted version for the benefit of members here.