Form 1 SBR Engraving Debate Thread

[dontpanic]

Well, when Mr BATFE walks up to you in 'AnywhereUSA' and asks you to ''produce'' a copy of your stamp that qualifies that rifle in your hands, what would you presume "produce" to mean?

I have pdfs in my phone of my trust and all my stamps.

I usually also carry a hard copy of my stamp for the items I have with me. Probably overkill though.

 

[outrider58]

I have pdfs in my phone of my trust and all my stamps.

I usually also carry a hard copy of my stamp for the items I have with me. Probably overkill though.

I do the same. Who wants to take the chance.

 

[outrider58]

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,718 Quote:
Originally Posted by outrider58 View Post
Well, when Mr BATFE walks up to you in 'AnywhereUSA' and asks you to ''produce'' a copy of your stamp that qualifies that rifle in your hands, what would you presume "produce" to mean?

Well, that's kind of my point. In the actual text of the National Firearms Act, it just says:


Quote:
A person possessing a firearm registered to him shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request.

There is slightly different verbiage used in different sections (on making vs buying, etc) but that's basically it. It does NOT say that you have to have it with you, or produce it immediately, or anything like that. The ATF, on their FAQ page, say that:


Quote:
Does the possessor of an NFA firearm have to show proof of registration?

Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm. This document must be made available upon request of any ATF officer. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the possessor when the weapon is being transported.

They specifically reference [26 U.S.C. 5841(e); 27 CFR 478.101] in that FAQ page, which says:


Quote:
Section 3.7 Maintaining registration documents. A person possessing an NFA firearm registered as
required by law must retain proof of registration, that is, the document showing the person’s registration,
which must be made available to ATF upon request.

That section also covers other stuff like what to do if you lose your stamp, or it is destroyed, etc, but nowhere in any of it does it say you have to keep it with you. What it does say specifically is that your approved Form 1 and Form 4s are to be treated as tax return documents and therefore kept confidential by the government.

So....

Like many other things surrounding NFA stuff, there is the actual law, and then there is what people expect you to do. In this case, there is nothing in the actual law that says you have to keep your forms with you or with the gun at all times. You just have to be able to produce them when asked to do so by an ATF agent. Nowhere does it say "immediately."
Hawkeye is offline Report Post

I never meant you had to carry the original document(and I don't think I said that. I said COPY). A copy is sufficient. Otherwise, your writings here prove my point.

 

[Hawkeye]

I never meant you had to carry the original document(and I don't think I said that. I said COPY). A copy is sufficient. Otherwise, your writings here prove my point.

Oh, sorry.... I never took what you were saying as meaning the originals.

I'm just making the point that the whole "you are required to carry a copy of your stamp with the gun" thing is another one of those myths that get repeated over and over again. Nowhere in the law, US Code, or ATF regs does it say you have to keep it with you. Only that you be able to produce it when asked. It doesn't say "produce immediately."

The ATF can "suggest" things all that they want to, but that doesn't make it law. Just like you don't have to notify the ATF if you permanently change the configuration of an SBR, you don't have to carry paperwork with you.

Can you? Sure. Will it likely help in the unlikely event Mr. ATF officer is ever doing a range sweep or something? Probably. Do you have to? No.

 

[Hawkeye]

Oh, and to answer your question about what I would presume "produce" means, I think it means that you can come up with it. Black's Law Dictionary defines "produce" in this context as "To bring forward, to show or exhibit, to bring in to view or notice, as to produce books or writings at a trial." There is no timeframe inherently attached to the word "produce." If the people who wrote the National Firearms Act had wanted to include a timetable for when you had to produce the documentation, they could have but they didn't. Likewise, the ATF has not defined a timeframe regulatorily.

In my eyes, that means that as long as you can come up with it within a reasonable amount of time when asked, you're fine.

And again, I realize that I'm arguing semantics of law here, and I'm certainly no lawyer.

 

[fabsroman]

Oh, sorry.... I never took what you were saying as meaning the originals.

I'm just making the point that the whole "you are required to carry a copy of your stamp with the gun" thing is another one of those myths that get repeated over and over again. Nowhere in the law, US Code, or ATF regs does it say you have to keep it with you. Only that you be able to produce it when asked. It doesn't say "produce immediately."

The ATF can "suggest" things all that they want to, but that doesn't make it law. Just like you don't have to notify the ATF if you permanently change the configuration of an SBR, you don't have to carry paperwork with you.

Can you? Sure. Will it likely help in the unlikely event Mr. ATF officer is ever doing a range sweep or something? Probably. Do you have to? No.

Yeah, pretty sure the ATF agent isn't going to come back to your house and wait for you to find it and then produce it. If you don't have it on you, you are most likely going to get charged with a crime. Then, you have the opportunity to produce it in court and argue that the law is silent on when the stamp needs to be produced. I guess you can make the argument that it must be produced within a "reasonable" time, even though the law is silent on that too. The law does not mention "reasonable". Heck, might as well argue that you have until the end of time to produce the stamp since the law is silent on when it must be produced.

Of course, if Congress was as astute as our General Assembly, it would have fashioned that law after the Maryland hunting license law:

A person shall have in the person’s possession the person’s hunter’s license while hunting and, upon demand, shall exhibit the license to the Natural Resources police officer or any law enforcement officer, the landowner on whose property the person is hunting, or the landowner’s representative.

For those that are not attorneys, it might be best to have a copy of the stamp in one's possession to avoid being charged with a crime and having to deal with the entire ordeal of handcuffs, mug shots, court dates, attorneys fees, etc.

For those of us that are attorneys, we get to deal with all of the above, because as we know, an attorney that has himself as a client has a fool for a client, and on top of that should we get convicted we might be losing our professional license to practice law. Most licensed professionals might be looking at the loss of their license if they are convicted.

Let me think this through using common sense. Spend 5 cents to print out my tax stamp and go through the hassle of keeping it in a NFA range bag and taking it to the range with me, or run the risk of a huge hassle and possible life changing outcome. Think I'll spend the 5 cents and lug that oh so heavy range bag along with me.

When I am 70 years old and affluent beyond belief, maybe I'll think differently about it and attempt to become the test case for everybody else. Then again, prison at the age of 70 sure would suck.

Now, does anybody have any real life outcomes of cases where somebody possessing a NFA item did not produce the tax stamp upon the ATF agent asking for it? It would be nice to know what usually happens in court when the tax stamp is presented at trial, or if upon the presentment of the tax stamp to the authorities prior to the trial date the charges are subsequently dropped.

 

[outrider58]

Yeah, pretty sure the ATF agent isn't going to come back to your house and wait for you to find it and then produce it. If you don't have it on you, you are most likely going to get charged with a crime. Then, you have the opportunity to produce it in court and argue that the law is silent on when the stamp needs to be produced. I guess you can make the argument that it must be produced within a "reasonable" time, even though the law is silent on that too. The law does not mention "reasonable". Heck, might as well argue that you have until the end of time to produce the stamp since the law is silent on when it must be produced.

Of course, if Congress was as astute as our General Assembly, it would have fashioned that law after the Maryland hunting license law:



For those that are not attorneys, it might be best to have a copy of the stamp in one's possession to avoid being charged with a crime and having to deal with the entire ordeal of handcuffs, mug shots, court dates, attorneys fees, etc.

For those of us that are attorneys, we get to deal with all of the above, because as we know, an attorney that has himself as a client has a fool for a client, and on top of that should we get convicted we might be losing our professional license to practice law. Most licensed professionals might be looking at the loss of their license if they are convicted.

Let me think this through using common sense. Spend 5 cents to print out my tax stamp and go through the hassle of keeping it in a NFA range bag and taking it to the range with me, or run the risk of a huge hassle and possible life changing outcome. Think I'll spend the 5 cents and lug that oh so heavy range bag along with me.

When I am 70 years old and affluent beyond belief, maybe I'll think differently about it and attempt to become the test case for everybody else. Then again, prison at the age of 70 sure would suck.

Now, does anybody have any real life outcomes of cases where somebody possessing a NFA item did not produce the tax stamp upon the ATF agent asking for it? It would be nice to know what usually happens in court when the tax stamp is presented at trial, or if upon the presentment of the tax stamp to the authorities prior to the trial date the charges are subsequently dropped.

Hell, the most you could expect is 30 years, tops.(J/K) Good points, fabs.

 

[Hawkeye]

Yeah, pretty sure the ATF agent isn't going to come back to your house and wait for you to find it and then produce it. If you don't have it on you, you are most likely going to get charged with a crime.

That's conjecture. Educated conjecture, but conjecture.

This is a serious question, and not asked to be a jerk: can you find a case anywhere where someone was arrested for not having a Form 4 or Form 1 on them? I've spent some time looking, and I can't find one. Again, not trying to be jerky, because I'd really be genuinely curious to read about what went on.

Let me think this through using common sense. Spend 5 cents to print out my tax stamp and go through the hassle of keeping it in a NFA range bag and taking it to the range with me, or run the risk of a huge hassle and possible life changing outcome. Think I'll spend the 5 cents and lug that oh so heavy range bag along with me.

I'm certainly not arguing that no one should carry their paperwork with them, and we should all flip the bird at "the man" or whatever. I was basically just trying to point out that the "you have to carry the paperwork with you or you're breaking the law" myth is just that - a myth. It's been repeated over and over ad infinitum to the point where in some cases it has bred dangerous misunderstandings. One of the things I found when I was searching for cases where someone had been arrested or prosecuted for not carrying paperwork with them was a guy who's SOT told him that he had to carry the original, stamped Form 4 for a suppressor with him at all times, because otherwise how would "the law" know that the guy hadn't just forged the copy? I think we all would agree that this is a pretty massive misunderstanding that could potentially be a giant pain for the guy if his originals ever got destroyed or lost. There is a procedure for replacing them, but it's another round of playing "wait for the ATF" and there have apparently been cases in the past where an item didn't get entered in the Registry properly and the original stamped Form 4 or Form 1 was the only proof of legal registration.

It's the same thing, in my mind, as the "you give up your 4th amendment rights and have to let the ATF search your house whenever they want" rumor that so many people still repeat about NFA stuff.

Now, does anybody have any real life outcomes of cases where somebody possessing a NFA item did not produce the tax stamp upon the ATF agent asking for it? It would be nice to know what usually happens in court when the tax stamp is presented at trial, or if upon the presentment of the tax stamp to the authorities prior to the trial date the charges are subsequently dropped.

Like I said above, I would genuinely like to know this same thing. Since this (for us, in MD at least - it's different in some states like Texas where there is state law about NFA items and you need the registration proof for an affirmative defense) is Federal law, you'd be dealing with a US Attorney and one would hope that any competent federal prosecutor would drop any charges when you would produce the documentation.

Which is, also, admittedly conjecture. In my case, I've gotta use those little compartments in the back of the ACS-L stock for something.

 

[Devil Dog]

Like I said above, I would genuinely like to know this same thing. Since this (for us, in MD at least - it's different in some states like Texas where there is state law about NFA items and you need the registration proof for an affirmative defense) is Federal law, you'd be dealing with a US Attorney and one would hope that any competent federal prosecutor would drop any charges when you would produce the documentation.

We have a similar law in Maryland. See Public Safety statute, § 5-203. Possession of short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun.

***
(b)* Burden of proof.- In a prosecution under this section, the defendant has the burden of proving the lawful registration of the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle.*

While it doesn't give a cop the right to demand to see your registration it does give a prosecutor and a judge that right (or you could just go to jail).

So you could possibly be dealing with state prosecutors.

As a practical matter, if a Maryland cop asks to see my paperwork I'm handing it over. I have no intention of "dying on that beachhead" and tell him he has no right, only to risk being later compelled to produce the same paperwork to a prosecutor and/or judge AFTER I've had my item(s) seized and have possibly been arrested. I carry a copies in my range bag and on my phone. And all my weapons (not my silencers of course) have their respective stamps either in the buttstock or pistol grip.

Sent from my SM-T710 using Tapatalk

 

[fabsroman]

That's conjecture. Educated conjecture, but conjecture.

This is a serious question, and not asked to be a jerk: can you find a case anywhere where someone was arrested for not having a Form 4 or Form 1 on them? I've spent some time looking, and I can't find one. Again, not trying to be jerky, because I'd really be genuinely curious to read about what went on.



I'm certainly not arguing that no one should carry their paperwork with them, and we should all flip the bird at "the man" or whatever. I was basically just trying to point out that the "you have to carry the paperwork with you or you're breaking the law" myth is just that - a myth. It's been repeated over and over ad infinitum to the point where in some cases it has bred dangerous misunderstandings. One of the things I found when I was searching for cases where someone had been arrested or prosecuted for not carrying paperwork with them was a guy who's SOT told him that he had to carry the original, stamped Form 4 for a suppressor with him at all times, because otherwise how would "the law" know that the guy hadn't just forged the copy? I think we all would agree that this is a pretty massive misunderstanding that could potentially be a giant pain for the guy if his originals ever got destroyed or lost. There is a procedure for replacing them, but it's another round of playing "wait for the ATF" and there have apparently been cases in the past where an item didn't get entered in the Registry properly and the original stamped Form 4 or Form 1 was the only proof of legal registration.

It's the same thing, in my mind, as the "you give up your 4th amendment rights and have to let the ATF search your house whenever they want" rumor that so many people still repeat about NFA stuff.



Like I said above, I would genuinely like to know this same thing. Since this (for us, in MD at least - it's different in some states like Texas where there is state law about NFA items and you need the registration proof for an affirmative defense) is Federal law, you'd be dealing with a US Attorney and one would hope that any competent federal prosecutor would drop any charges when you would produce the documentation.

Which is, also, admittedly conjecture. In my case, I've gotta use those little compartments in the back of the ACS-L stock for something.

Conjecture? I don't think so. More like officer discretion. The officer can write you up for whatever he/she wants and even arrest you. You get to argue probable cause, etc. at trial. Not having the tax stamp just gives the officer a reason to arrest you.

You think it will not happen, I think it will. Then, we can speculate further as to what the judge will feel like that day. You ever read the DC case where the judge ruled that bullets to a muzzle loader, without powder, were ammunition and the defendant was found guilty?

I've been charged with stuff where the officer was dead wrong, but there was no talking sense into the officer at the scene. Nope, it had to happen in court. Thankfully, the charges were misdemeanors.

 

[Hawkeye]

Conjecture? I don't think so.

No, your statement was conjecture.

Yeah, pretty sure the ATF agent isn't going to come back to your house and wait for you to find it and then produce it. If you don't have it on you, you are most likely going to get charged with a crime.

It's conjecture because none of us know what would happen on a given day in a given situation. A local LEO can arrest me on violation of Maryland Public Safety statute, § 5-203, (which is a misdemeanor offense) if they want to, but there is nothing in that law that says I have to carry the paperwork with me. Only that it has to be registered according to federal law.

Let me ask you this, as it is an analogous situation:

Do you carry a copy of your 77R with you for any handguns or preban rifles? Because you can't own those without having registered the firearm with the MSP. If you get stopped at the range, how does Mr. Officer know that the AR you're shooting is legally yours, and preban?


And the question I asked earlier stands - can anyone point at a concrete case where someone was arrested for an NFA item when they didn't have the stamp on them?