First ATF ruling of 2015

[j_h_smith]

I don't think you can do real milling with this unit. It doesn't look like it could handle a blank of aluminum, nor have the power to mill that blank into a lower. Just my opinion.

Jim Smith

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Fine for mild woodworking, lettering, engraving, etc...

Worthless as a milling machine for metal.

 

[md_rick_o]

I figured that, but was wondering since it says aluminum in the description.

 

[Sticky]

This is basically reaffirming their position that you can't go use someone else's equipment (read mill, cnc, drill press or otherwise) to finish a lower receiver from a paperweight. The dudes in Cali started this last year with build parties. Don't think it matters if you charge them to rent or not. If you want to finish a lower, you better do it with your own equipment. They stated this and enforced it pretty well in Cali when they started to do this to circumvent the ridiculous laws passed there.

If you are making 80% lowers (still a paperweight), they also stated that you cannot use that equipment to finish lowers (unless for your own personal builds) without a manufacturing license. So, nobody else can come into your shop and work on the completion of a paperweight.

Kind of makes sense. If you want to 'build your own lower', you need some equipment of your own to finish it from an 80% or lesser state.

You can do it with a drill press (heck, even a hand drill and drill depth guide) and dremel tool if you want. It ain't pretty, but it will function if you keep the machining dimensions to spec, more or less.. lol

 

[fabsroman]

This is basically reaffirming their position that you can't go use someone else's equipment (read mill, cnc, drill press or otherwise) to finish a lower receiver from a paperweight. The dudes in Cali started this last year with build parties. Don't think it matters if you charge them to rent or not. If you want to finish a lower, you better do it with your own equipment. They stated this and enforced it pretty well in Cali when they started to do this to circumvent the ridiculous laws passed there.

If you are making 80% lowers (still a paperweight), they also stated that you cannot use that equipment to finish lowers (unless for your own personal builds) without a manufacturing license. So, nobody else can come into your shop and work on the completion of a paperweight.

Kind of makes sense. If you want to 'build your own lower', you need some equipment of your own to finish it from an 80% or lesser state.

You can do it with a drill press (heck, even a hand drill and drill depth guide) and dremel tool if you want. It ain't pretty, but it will function if you keep the machining dimensions to spec, more or less.. lol

Again, this ruling pertains to those that are in the "business" of doing it. If I borrow a drill press and router from my dad, at no charge to me, he is not in violation of this ruling. It is when I take my lowers to somebody and use their machines or help/labor to finish the 80% lower. Further, there were instances where people had CnC machines set up such that a person would "rent" the machine for $200+, press a green button, and then go home with a completed lower that was machined from an 80% lower or a straight up block of aluminum.

This does not prevent build parties where nobody is getting paid and people are just building their lowers in front of one another. Same goes for machining parties. If my brothers came over here with their 80% lowers and used my drill press, my drill, my router, my mill, or whatever else, to finish their lowers and I did not charge them a penny or assist them in finishing the lowers, I seriously doubt I would be in violation of this ruling.

The key word repeated throughout the ruling is BUSINESS.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

Fabs,

I see what you are saying but I think the point of completing your own firearm and how you do it is your business. How you choose to complete it, either by paying someone to help, or doing it yourself, YOU are still responsible for it's completion.

I don't have many examples, but suppose you built your own AC cobra from a kit. When you got nearly complete, you went go a shop and had them complete 20% of the work (Maybe paint, engine work, electronics or whatever). You are still the manufacturer. This example may also work with a home built airplane. You do the grunt work, and then pay a guy with an A&P license to install the engine.

The bottom line is that you are responsible for it's production.

I would be curious on caselaw that may apply.

 

[fabsroman]

Fabs,

I see what you are saying but I think the point of completing your own firearm and how you do it is your business. How you choose to complete it, either by paying someone to help, or doing it yourself, YOU are still responsible for it's completion.

I don't have many examples, but suppose you built your own AC cobra from a kit. When you got nearly complete, you went go a shop and had them complete 20% of the work (Maybe paint, engine work, electronics or whatever). You are still the manufacturer. This example may also work with a home built airplane. You do the grunt work, and then pay a guy with an A&P license to install the engine.

The bottom line is that you are responsible for it's production.

I would be curious on caselaw that may apply.

The laws are different when it comes to building firearms versus building cars versus building airplanes. Firearm manufacturers have to be licensed to manufacture them. When a person does not have a FFL but owns a CnC machine, owns the code to the machine, purchases the 80% lowers in bulk, sets the machine up to run with the mere push of a button, and then "rents" the machine out, supplies the lower, and all the renter needs to do is push a button to complete the lower, I can see where the CnC owner is in the business of manufacturing firearms and he/she would need a FFL. Therein is the problem. It isn't about you and I just finishing out an 80% lower, it is about an unlicensed person that is in the business of finishing 80% lowers and selling them to people under the guise that all the purchaser did was rent the CnC machine and finish the lower himself.

Personally, I would prefer that it not be like this and that I could finish an 80% lower on a CnC machine with the mere push of a button and pay somebody the "rental" fee.

To find caselaw on this, you would have to find some cases about what constitutes manufacturing a firearm. I seriously doubt there is any case law on point about whether renting out a CnC machine, with the code already on the machine, is manufacturing or not. If there were caselaw already in place that is on point, I doubt the ATF would have had to issue anything regarding the matter.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

Auto makers and airplane manufacturers are licensed too. Probably more so than firearms manufacturers. And, firearms manufacturers are protected federally from suits.

My point is that is doesn't matter if they are licensed or not. You are finishing the firearm. How you do it is not their concern.

I see what you are saying if the guy that rents you the machine sells you the 80%, but not if you buy it yourself and go elsewhere. That should be OK.

In todays modern CNC machinery, I don't know how to define percentage. Insert billet block, push button, maybe rotate, push complete. Anodizing might take longer and more steps.

 

[tc617]

Meh... So when do you guys wanna plan the next AK build party?

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

Meh... So when do you guys wanna plan the next AK build party?

I'm in. It looks kind of complicated with the forging.

 

[fabsroman]

Auto makers and airplane manufacturers are licensed too. Probably more so than firearms manufacturers. And, firearms manufacturers are protected federally from suits.

My point is that is doesn't matter if they are licensed or not. You are finishing the firearm. How you do it is not their concern.

I see what you are saying if the guy that rents you the machine sells you the 80%, but not if you buy it yourself and go elsewhere. That should be OK.

In todays modern CNC machinery, I don't know how to define percentage. Insert billet block, push button, maybe rotate, push complete. Anodizing might take longer and more steps.

I think you are missing the point. It will not be illegal for you to take it to somebody, have them insert it in their machine, pay them rent, etc. to push the green button. It is illegal for the person with the CnC machine to charge for that because he is completing the firearm for you. Really no sweat to you whatsoever as the consumer/"builder", but the person with the CnC machine that is charging to finish the 80% is going to be in some serious trouble. The entire "rent" thing is merely a way for the CnC machine owner/business to get around the need to be licensed and for there to be a serial number attached with the lowers that the CnC owner makes.

The question is, who is finishing that lower, you or the CnC owner that has set everything up, programmed the CnC machine, and you merely have to press a green button. Who builds the firearm if you drop it off at my house, I put it in some jigs and finish it for you, and charge you $50? Whoever is finishing these lowers for somebody else and charging to do so, is the one that is going to be in trouble. I think it is the same even if a person were to build a firearm for a buddy.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

I think you are missing the point. It will not be illegal for you to take it to somebody, have them insert it in their machine, pay them rent, etc. to push the green button. It is illegal for the person with the CnC machine to charge for that because he is completing the firearm for you. Really no sweat to you whatsoever as the consumer/"builder", but the person with the CnC machine that is charging to finish the 80% is going to be in some serious trouble. The entire "rent" thing is merely a way for the CnC machine owner/business to get around the need to be licensed and for there to be a serial number attached with the lowers that the CnC owner makes.

The question is, who is finishing that lower, you or the CnC owner that has set everything up, programmed the CnC machine, and you merely have to press a green button. Who builds the firearm if you drop it off at my house, I put it in some jigs and finish it for you, and charge you $50? Whoever is finishing these lowers for somebody else and charging to do so, is the one that is going to be in trouble. I think it is the same even if a person were to build a firearm for a buddy.

I wish I still had some legal research tools. When you rent something, the responsibility and liability are now your issues. When I rent a truck from U-Haul to make a delivery, I made the delivery, not U-Haul. If I crash the truck, it's my problem. If I pay DHS to make a delivery, DHS made the delivery. If they crash the truck, it's their problem. You can use this analogy for many rental tool businesses as well. When I rent the tool, I just push the "ON" button.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Cycle Start Button, Damnit!

Cycle Start Button!

Heathens.

 

[fabsroman]

I wish I still had some legal research tools. When you rent something, the responsibility and liability are now your issues. When I rent a truck from U-Haul to make a delivery, I made the delivery, not U-Haul. If I crash the truck, it's my problem. If I pay DHS to make a delivery, DHS made the delivery. If they crash the truck, it's their problem. You can use this analogy for many rental tool businesses as well. When I rent the tool, I just push the "ON" button.

Think this was already covered in the thread, but there is "renting" and then there is renting. Could I go to the Colt plant, "rent" a CnC plant, push a green button, and then make the case that I manufactured the firearm and it does not need a serial number and no NICS check is required? There is a difference between a bonafide rental and a sham rental to avoid the legal requirements of a person/corporation being licensed.

As has already been stated somewhere in this thread, if somebody rents a CnC machine, puts it on their truck, brings it to their house, uploads the code to the machine, and does all the real work of manufacturing a firearm, then I don't really see an issue. Plus, the person/entity involved in renting the tools.

You need to go back and read the ruling, and focus on dominion and control. Is the machinery still under the renter's control if it is taken off site? Seriously doubt it is under the renter's dominion if the machinery is taken off site.

Here is the ruling from the OP:

A business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and record keeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery or equipment.

So, go rent a CnC machine, or any other machine, bring it home for any period of time, and manufacture firearms to your hearts content and nobody gets in trouble.

 

[Not_an_outlaw]

I guess we'll need to see how this is addressed. I can rent things that are not under my dominion and control, like a fire hall, hotel room, picnic area, pool, etc..

I would be more concerned with the "including an association or society." Could that mean two people could not rent the machine at the same time. I wonder how "association" and "society" are defined.

I hope that the test case is someone with a good attorney.

 

[BradyWarrior]

Prince Law's take on it.
http://blog.princelaw.com/2015/01/0...g-of-the-new-year-is-it-the-end-of-80-lowers/

Thanks for this post, good read.

 

[Markp]

I think this is targeted at 80% lowers.

So much hyperbole...

Unlicensed individuals occasionally (FREQUENTLY) purchase castings or machined/molded or other manufactured bodies (sometimes referred to as “blanks,” or “80% receivers”) that have not yet reached a stage of manufacture in which they are classified as “firearm frames or receivers” under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) and implementing regulations.


Face it, the ATF doesn't like it... so you had to expect this... makes me want to invent a machine that was low cost enough to manufacture receivers that everyone could afford....

Let's see, 3 Arduino's, 3 NEMA 17 motors, a spindle tool, and a phenolic frame with polymer lowers. It might be possible and if it were pre-programmed plug and play... it would be awesome.

I love technology... Don't worry ATF, someone will build it... Someone will.

 

[fabsroman]

So much hyperbole...

Unlicensed individuals occasionally (FREQUENTLY) purchase castings or machined/molded or other manufactured bodies (sometimes referred to as “blanks,” or “80% receivers”) that have not yet reached a stage of manufacture in which they are classified as “firearm frames or receivers” under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) and implementing regulations.


Face it, the ATF doesn't like it... so you had to expect this... makes me want to invent a machine that was low cost enough to manufacture receivers that everyone could afford....

Let's see, 3 Arduino's, 3 NEMA 17 motors, a spindle tool, and a phenolic frame with polymer lowers. It might be possible and if it were pre-programmed plug and play... it would be awesome.

I love technology... Don't worry ATF, someone will build it... Someone will.

It really isn't that hard to finish up an 80% lower with a drill/drill press and a router. I watched a video on it the other day and it was almost simplistic if somebody has any mechanical ability whatsoever.

 

[embermage]

The freedom of association does not extend to illegal enterprise.

An "association of moonshine producers" for example, is NOT covered under the 1A.

My point was more to the fact they could say we, as Maryland Shooters forum members, are an association and therefore banned from building at home.

 

[Shoobedoo]

Dated 1/2/2015, ATF rules that persons/shops who allow people the use of their machinery to complete a firearm are considered to be "in the business." Thus need to be licensed.

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi...ling-2015-1-manufacturing-and-gunsmithing.pdf

"A business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and record keeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery or equipment."

I wonder if this ruling can or will be applied retroactively..?? ie. anyone who purchased an 80% lower then finished it using rented or borrowed equipment prior to this ruling becoming law.