Famous C$R Fakes and Frauds

[Machodoc]

A couple of recent posts, such as Mawkie's posting about cobbled-together Lithgow trainers, really call out for a thread to be dedicated to just this sort of firearm. For this one, I propose that we keep random discussion to a minimum and restrict comments to additional information about firearm fakes.

Here are some recent threads that anyone here should find useful:

Jovino No2 MK4 SMLE trainers - http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=151199

You see these pop up on a regular basis so I thought I'd post for the new collectors so they know what to look for. John Jovino purchased a large number of SMLEs and spares from the Australian gov't some years ago (my hazy memory wants to say late 80s or early 90s). What he had in the spares lots were some NOS No2 MK4 barreled receivers and bolts along with furniture and hardware. JJ's staff assembled a number of "new" No2s from these parts and then assigned them new SNs that used a "T" prefix.
So when looking for one of these the two things that instantly jump at me are the T prefix (genuine Australian No2s used A-F suffix in their SNs) and the brand new furniture. Here's a GB auction with a JJ No2 MK4 to illustrate. The seller has a BIN of $800 which is a good $250 or more too high as I would value it in the $450-550 range. Its value is purely as a shooter as it would have little to no value to a collector at this time. Perhaps in the future it would gain interest and value (I don't forget that Sedgley built rifles were pure poison to collectors when I was young, my how time has turned that around!).

German issued Astra 400s - http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=151030

The last couple of years I've been on the lookout for a German issued Astra 400 but haven't had any luck yet. Then I ran across this Gun Broker listing for a German 400 but instantly knew it was bogus. German Astras never had Waffenampt markings, you can only ID them by the serial number range which was from 92851 to 98850. So when I see the seller proclaim that it was German marked I was suspicious.
Then a check of the SN showed it was close, 87,000 range, but definitely outside the range of German use. Then when you look at the right rear side of the slide you can see where someone tried to stamp a fake Waffenampt on the curved surface. German inspectors weren't so stupid, they always marked on the flat rear surface of the frame.
So always be vigilant and ya gotta be cautious when it comes to certain items. Luckily this one was easy to spot.

 

[Machodoc]

To Mawkie's excellent posts, I'll also add a notation about the infamous fake "Nazi" Star B pistols.

The Stars were made in Spain, and were very handy for combatant countries to buy as firearms that were primarily used by police, etc., so that what were perceived to be the higher-quality guns could go to the troops. Germany bought a number of pistols for this purpose during WWII, as did Bulgaria.

After the war, and unscrupulous dealer in Europe obtained a substantial number of the Bulgarian-contract Star Bs and decided he could make more money for them by selling them as "Nazi" handguns. To that end, he stamped fake WaffenAmpt marks on them, then peddled them as Nazi war relics.

The only sure way to tell if a Star B pistol was indeed one of the German contract guns is by the serial number series into which it falls.

The Bulgarian fakes are generally within the 230XXX to the 240XXX series of numbers.

 

[somd_mustangs]

STAR B S/N's:

Berlin Commercial(12/7/43) 235801-235900 (no Waffenamt)
Dornheim AG Commerical(6/3/44) 254301-254550 (no Waffenamt)

German Military shipments:
Army(5/15/42) 210951-212950 (no Waffenamt)
Army(5/29/42) 212951-214950 (no Waffenamt)
Army(7/26/43) 214953-216200; 216251-217502; 222457-222675; 222701-222750; 223776-225006 (intermittent E/WaA251)
Army(5/29/44) 244503-247002 (E/WaAD20)
Army(6/14/44) 248001-254300; 254551-256250 (E/WaAD20)

Army(7/14/44) 256251-258000; 260001-260250 * UNDELIVERED, no Waffenamt

Navy(7/26/43) 217503-218042; 218044-218048; 218050-218213; 218125-219400; 219501-219950; 220026-220942; 220994-221200; 221976-222456 (intermittent E/WaA251
Navy(replacement) 225849 (?)
Navy(5/29/44) 242003-244502 (E/WaAD20)

No special markings for the Kriegsmarine pistols. If there are, they're faked.
Note that the 1944 Waffenamt is E/WaAD20, same as the Astra 600's.

 

[Alphabrew]

This is going to be a great thread. I love learning about these kinds of things.

 

[JHE1956]

I'd like to see discussions from the experts (of which I am not one) on the following:

Fake Enfield #5 Jungle Carbines
Fake M1898 Krag Carbines
Iraqi Fake FN Hi Powers
Fake M1A1 Paratrooper Carbines

 

[edhallor]

Nice, the Star is an easy fake and there seems to be a lot of them out there. I believe a lot of times even the seller may not know he is passing on a fake. Only way I would buy one is on a face to face where I can take a Loop and verify the markings.

I have a Star that fires the Spanish 9mm, good gun, not a great gun.
Unless I was a die hard Nazi collector, which I'm not I'll stick with my current Star which is a fair copy of the 1911.

I see a lot of the P38's faked which does pi__ me off, also when someone grinds off the capture marks on a K98 and grinds and re-stamps a matching serial number on the Bolt.

A lot of these fakes are good, damm good and appear to have been done in a Gunshop or even Government over the past seventy or more years.

Not pointing a finger at Mitchell Mauser, but grind off Mitchell's light Logo on the barrel and one might think he has a prime Bring Back.

I'm not knocking Mitchell, I own, one of the best tack drivers I own.

My point when you collect Weapons of the World no problem, a 1911 is a 1911, a K98 is a K98. Have fun and build your collection, However when you see terms like Bring Back, Black Widow, SS etc. and the price goes from $200 to $2,000 it's time to do your homework and even that may not save you from a picture that can be easily altered.

Shame not everyone in our Hobby is honest.
Have fun, be cautious.
Eddie O

 

[UpperMarlboroMan]

Fake CMP Collector grades rifles

Here was a recent thread about faked CMP Collector grade rifles:
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=148260

And this one is important because the fakes were here in Maryland.

 

[c&rdaze]

Yes, I got one of the fake Stars. Dealer didn't even know until later and he was pissed. Nice gun, really. Sooo, I had to find a real one. Also, a nice gun.

 

[mawkie]

Here was a recent thread about faked CMP Collector grade rifles:
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=148260

And this one is important because the fakes were here in Maryland.

Now this is something I was unaware of. Thanks for posting the link to the original thread.

 

[somd_mustangs]

Another thing to look out for is repro boxes and holsters sold as originals. Original boxes for some guns can be as much as the gun itself (early Colt for instance). If it looks too good to be true it probably is.

 

[Sunir]

Another great thread that should be a sticky. Madarory reading for new CnR holders prior to buying something like a STAR or Astra or the other highly faked guns.

 

[reverendbeer]

I'd like to see discussions from the experts (of which I am not one) on the following:

Fake Enfield #5 Jungle Carbines

I'm no expert, but I can tell you if you don't have fluting where the barrel meets the reciever under the handguard, and if your model information DOESN'T look like it was faked (light-ish electropenciling), you've got a cut down #4...

 

[Boom Boom]

Some people argue that Mosin M1891/59 "carbines" are fake. I think they're great collectibles. Think of it as a M38 HBAR.

 

[Boom Boom]

I'm no expert, but I can tell you if you don't have fluting where the barrel meets the reciever under the handguard, and if your model information DOESN'T look like it was faked (light-ish electropenciling), you've got a cut down #4...

The receiver is the obvious giveaway. You'll recognize a #5 instantly with a glance.

 

[Jimbob2.0]

Another great thread that should be a sticky. Madarory reading for new CnR holders prior to buying something like a STAR or Astra or the other highly faked guns.

Definately agree with that. This is a valuable piece of knowledge base to keep at the top so when we encounter something suspect we can check.

For example, lately I have been struggling with finding a real Martini Henry (actually two, want one in .577/450 and one in .303) but so many Khyber pass guns out there in whole or part. Some are easy to spot (mis-spellings, crude stamps) but others are pretty good.

 

[bbrown]

Some people argue that Mosin M1891/59 "carbines" are fake. I think they're great collectibles. Think of it as a M38 HBAR.

IIRC, the West didn't know about those until an East German border guard defected over the fence with one.

 

[MilsurpDan]

Yea, Yea, Necro-Thread Revival

I wanted to post these here for the sake of helping out the guys who don't know much about these. Hopefully we can get one of the Mods to make this a Sticky thread this time around. Lots of great information on here.

First off, bnz 43 K98k I found on GB.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=511542356

Horribly turded up. Pimp shined bolt, buffed and reblued metal and refinished stock. The markings on the receiver are horribly mistamped. Look at the "43", and the off center acceptance stamp above the "bnz". I don't have pictures on my phone, but later I'll post pictures of what a proper bnz 43 k98k looks like.

Steyr made k98k's were notorious for having horrible fit and finish as well as crooked markings, but this one is above and beyond all that.

Not a hard fake to miss, but to an unsuspecting person it could be bad.

 

[MilsurpDan]

Second,

Found this being discussed on Gunboards and wanted to show it here. Another Grey Blanket special, but it's speculated it might have been done too long ago for him to be the faker. Due to that, im not going to throw out any accusations as to who may have done it.

Edit: just re-read the description. "NOT messed with in any way". Yea right

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=507320028

Look at the new chrsthanthemum stamped over the remnants of the old one that was partially removed. Somebody is out almost $2,000

 

[Dave91]

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?393385-Possible-Scam-Fakery-found
This guy operating a now shut down site called "The Mosin Corner" in SC sold several refurb 91/30's with fake Finnish SA stamps. Some really great internet detective work narrowed it down to him being the only possible culprit. The thread is a decent read if you're bored.

Edit: a lot of the links are dead, but you can still follow along pretty easily.

 

[Abulg1972]

I will add some information about the only weapon on which I consider myself to be a semi-expert. Argentine Mauser Model 1891 long rifles are almost always encountered with receivers on which the Argentine crest has been scrubbed. A nice, matching crested rifle is a rare find and can bring $1,000, easy. The same rifle without a crest will generally bring between $300 to $400. The same rifle that has been humped, or that has arsenal-replaced parts, is worth significantly less - probably in the $150 to $225 range. Back in the "old days", Argentina surplused a sizable number of crested replacement receivers, and unscrupulous importers decided to stamp them matching to barreled actions and replace the original receiver with the new one.

Although there is no "science" to spotting true fakes, as the Argentine arsenals did from time to time replace parts, including receivers, and stamp them to match, there are a few tell-tale signs that should tell you whether or not the rifle at which you are looking is original.

First, pay careful attention to the bluing on the barrel and receiver. If the bluing on the receiver looks significantly better than on the barre, then it likely is too good to be true.

Second, and this is probably the best indicator, pay careful attention to the fonts of the serial numbers (this goes for all numbered parts on the rifle). The parts of all Argentine Model 1891s were stamped at the same time, before they were blued. I don't think that anyone knows whether the same guy stamped all parts of a particular rifle, or whether parts were stamped at different "stations", but I guess we should assume the latter. In that case, it is likely that multiple dies, with different levels of wear, were used, but, generally, the fonts should both look the same and be the same size on all parts, or at least be very close.

Third, pay attention to whether the numbers were stamped over the bluing. Like on any gun, numbers stamped over bluing will show light edges, I guess from the stress of being stamped.

Fourth, notice whether the numbers are mostly straight and level, or whether they appear to have been stamped in a haphazard fashion. Loewe/DWM were very careful and deliberate when stamping. For example, if you see a number on a cleaning rod that does not, for the most part, run parallel to the axis of the rod, there is a good chance that it was humped.

Here is an example of a Model 1891 that has clearly been humped.