Drive to remove MSP as POC for NICS!

[Gordnfreman]

MSP is relying on good faith by the FFL to not release guns to people when the FFL knows that MSP is not able to review the app in 7days.

THE ROCK: MSP's failure to process apps in a timely manner.

THE HARDPLACE: Customers that have researched the law and are putting pressure on the FFL to release after 7days.

Any gun the FFL releases after 7days, they do so knowing that the app has not been reviewed. They can only hope that there is not a "not disapproved" down the road.

The concept of discretion to release is flawed. MSP decides who can own a firearm, not the FFL. The FFL who releases to Customer #1 based on some arbitrary standard or feeling and not customer #2 is going to to have a hard time explaining to customer #2, (or the customer's attorney) why he won't release to him.

The FFL's I deal with release to no one until the MSP faxes back the "not disapproved". I'm not happy about it but I understand it and would do the same thing, if in their position.

Gbh, no disrespect intended here but the law says the FFL may transfer, not that he has to. I am not seeing why a FFL would have to worry about customer #2's attorney.

 

[kohburn]

seems that releasing after 7 days to someone who already recently recieved a not-disapproved from the mdsp would be reasonable and farely prudent.

 

[Rack&Roll]

There are a couple angles to attack when it comes to Maryland's Soviet-style system (Boris moost do check on Square-ell, but Boris, he iz ouut to lunch and then he is go-ink home, darling). Apologies to Rocky & Bullwinkle fans...

The most egregious interference here is that firearm ownership is a fundamental right that can only be delayed by the State to determine if the buyer is dangerous--either criminally or mentally. At some point, a good case could be made that Maryland's 7-day Waiting Period violates your rights as a Marylander AND as a US citizen. It is a "cooling off" period that was supposed to keep people from shooting up the bar that had just been thrown out of. But modern Supreme Court rulings mean that its highly likely that the 7-day waiting period could be challenged as an UNCONSTITUTIONAL INFRINGEMENT by the State. (Imagine if the State of Maryland mandated that you wait 7 Business Days before attending a new church you had chosen!). Where is it written that your Fundamental Rights as a US Citizen can be delayed because you might get angry or frustrated with life?

Same for the One-Gun-A-Month Law. How would you feel if Maryland dictated that you had to wait 30 days to switch your membership to a new church? Last year Virginia citizens proved that a Fundamental Right means something--they repealed their One-Gun-A-Month Law after it was on the books for more than 25 years. Firearm ownership is a protected constitutional right that States can delay in only the most minimal way.

So getting back to Maryland's delays: I understand some Marylanders are getting disapproved for firearm purchases because they have outstanding parking tickets or their car tags are not paid up. Where it is written that you give up ANY of your Bill of Rights protections over parking tickets or tags???

The Maryland State Police is looking at more than a dozen databases to find a way to "disapprove" your Constitutional Right to own firearms. What's to keep Maryland Bureaucrats from making it 25 databases? Or 50, or 75? There is really only ONE check that the courts allow--are you a dangerous criminal (felon) or a deranged individual (insane). That info is available on court records instantly, yet Maryland claims it needs NINE weeks to poke around to see if it can find unpaid parking tickets or out of date car tags on your record. We have to find the guts and the will to challenge that in court.

And as we know the Maryland State Police insists that it is the Point of Contact for making the call the National Instant Background Check System (NICS) when FFLs everywhere else do this just fine. It appears the MSP can be replaced as the POC if their system can't keep up. Meaning the background checks get turned over to the FFLs the way EVERY other state does it. We have to find which of our elected officials will demand PUBLICLY that the FBI remove the Maryland State Police from the Instant Background process and let Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) run the checks. Maryland Government has found the way to deny a Fundamental Right for 9 WEEKS. The FBI is not taking action because we, apparently, have not make enough noise about this. Let's make some noise then through our elected representatives. Push the FBI to answer the question: is MSP violating FBI policy or not!

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Gbh, no disrespect intended here but the law says the FFL may transfer, not that he has to. I am not seeing why a FFL would have to worry about customer #2's attorney.

Can you say discrimination? This could get ugly. IMHO, there would need to be clear, objective criteria to exercise that discretion. In today's PC world, I can imagine how that might go otherwise.

Do not interpret that I am advocating such things, but boy, that sure does start to open a can of worms.

 

[mdram]

think of it this way
may transfer
may issue

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

There are a couple angles to attack when it comes to Maryland's Soviet-style system (Boris moost do check on Square-ell, but Boris, he iz ouut to lunch and then he is go-ink home, darling). Apologies to Rocky & Bullwinkle fans...

The most egregious interference here is that firearm ownership is a fundamental right that can only be delayed by the State to determine if the buyer is dangerous--either criminally or mentally. At some point, a good case could be made that Maryland's 7-day Waiting Period violates your rights as a Marylander AND as a US citizen. It is a "cooling off" period that was supposed to keep people from shooting up the bar that had just been thrown out of. But modern Supreme Court rulings mean that its highly likely that the 7-day waiting period could be challenged as an UNCONSTITUTIONAL INFRINGEMENT by the State. (Imagine if the State of Maryland mandated that you wait 7 Business Days before attending a new church you had chosen!). Where is it written that your Fundamental Rights as a US Citizen can be delayed because you might get angry or frustrated with life?

Same for the One-Gun-A-Month Law. How would you feel if Maryland dictated that you had to wait 30 days to switch your membership to a new church? Last year Virginia citizens proved that a Fundamental Right means something--they repealed their One-Gun-A-Month Law after it was on the books for more than 25 years. Firearm ownership is a protected constitutional right that States can delay in only the most minimal way.

So getting back to Maryland's delays: I understand some Marylanders are getting disapproved for firearm purchases because they have outstanding parking tickets or their car tags are not paid up. Where it is written that you give up ANY of your Bill of Rights protections over parking tickets or tags???

The Maryland State Police is looking at more than a dozen databases to find a way to "disapprove" your Constitutional Right to own firearms. What's to keep Maryland Bureaucrats from making it 25 databases? Or 50, or 75? There is really only ONE check that the courts allow--are you a dangerous criminal (felon) or a deranged individual (insane). That info is available on court records instantly, yet Maryland claims it needs NINE weeks to poke around to see if it can find unpaid parking tickets or out of date car tags on your record. We have to find the guts and the will to challenge that in court.

And as we know the Maryland State Police insists that it is the Point of Contact for making the call the National Instant Background Check System (NICS) when FFLs everywhere else do this just fine. It appears the MSP can be replaced as the POC if their system can't keep up. Meaning the background checks get turned over to the FFLs the way EVERY other state does it. We have to find which of our elected officials will demand PUBLICLY that the FBI remove the Maryland State Police from the Instant Background process and let Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) run the checks. Maryland Government has found the way to deny a Fundamental Right for 9 WEEKS. The FBI is not taking action because we, apparently, have not make enough noise about this. Let's make some noise then through our elected representatives. Push the FBI to answer the question: is MSP violating FBI policy or not!

Was wondering about that parking ticket thing... Grrrrrrrr!

What if we denied voting to folks that had parking tickets? Why is it ok to disenfranchise and create impediments for one right specifically?

I mentioned the backlog to anyone that would listen when I was down in Annapolis during session. Kept getting the same types of responses "we are looking into it", "we out more manpower on it", "we are resolving it", "things will change soon".... That was 3 months ago.

Aren't they in a special session right now or coming up soon? Maybe we need to use that opening to demand action. Using an analogy, If you open an estate to settle one aspect, the entire estate opens. Wonder if the same could be when the MGA convenes?

 

[2AHokie]

seems that releasing after 7 days to someone who already recently recieved a not-disapproved from the mdsp would be reasonable and farely prudent.

This x 100000

It encourages repeat business and the FFL can be reasonably certain the applicant will be not disapproved and it's a clear criteria (people with not disapproved purchases within the last X days will get their firearms on day 8) so it's not open to a discrimination challenge. It's the best of both worlds.

 

[Gordnfreman]

Can you say discrimination? This could get ugly. IMHO, there would need to be clear, objective criteria to exercise that discretion. In today's PC world, I can imagine how that might go otherwise.

Do not interpret that I am advocating such things, but boy, that sure does start to open a can of worms.

I don't know about all that, but I believe there are laws that define what discrimination is and isn't. Would it be worth the retainer and legal fees to try and sue a FFL to get your gun?

Judge: Mr FFL, why did you transfer to MR. A and not transfer to MR. B?

FFL: Your Honor, the law, as you have read, say's I may transfer but does not require me to. Based on my 20 years experience of selling firearms I was uncomfortable with transferring to MR B until I received the NICS # and the ND from the MSP. I am in compliance with all state and federal law which gives me the right and the responsibility to decide when and to whom to transfer a given firearm.

Judge: Thank You Mr FFL, case dismissed.

Just my opinion in a condensed version of how I think it would go

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

I don't know about all that, but I believe there are laws that define what discrimination is and isn't. Would it be worth the retainer and legal fees to try and sue a FFL to get your gun?

Judge: Mr FFL, why did you transfer to MR. A and not transfer to MR. B?

FFL: Your Honor, the law, as you have read, say's I may transfer but does not require me to. Based on my 20 years experience of selling firearms I was uncomfortable with transferring to MR B until I received the NICS # and the ND from the MSP. I am in compliance with all state and federal law which gives me the right and the responsibility to decide when and to whom to transfer a given firearm.

Judge: Thank You Mr FFL, case dismissed.

Just my opinion in a condensed version of how I think it would go

LOL, then the petitioner's attorney jumps up and demands to know what criteria was used to determine "uncomfortable".... And insists the FFLis impugning the character of Mr. B. and away we go....

 

[mward]

seems that releasing after 7 days to someone who already recently recieved a not-disapproved from the mdsp would be reasonable and farely prudent.

100% agreed! They've already been disproved, if they do something illegal, MSP will be coming after them anyway. Heck, can't they call NICS themselves and do the 5 minute check like they do for unregulated firearms?

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

100% agreed! They've already been disproved, if they do something illegal, MSP will be coming after them anyway. Heck, can't they call NICS themselves and do the 5 minute check like they do for unregulated firearms?

Agreed. Wonder how many people have multiple apps in. They could save a lot of trouble by combining...

One FFL mentioned that something could have changed between the purchases. What I have been advocating is a non-regulated purchase at pick up time for the regulated ones to get a fresh NICS check, along with a prior purchase through the system.

 

[Gordnfreman]

LOL, then the petitioner's attorney jumps up and demands to know what criteria was used to determine "uncomfortable".... And insists the FFLis impugning the character of Mr. B. and away we go....

Then the FFL goes on to explain that the law does not require him to give reasons, but for the sake of the court I have done 20 transfers with MR A, who is a designated MD collector ,
I have known him for years and have never had a "disapproved" on him from the MSP.

Mr B just came onto my shop to buy his 2nd handgun in the last 5 years so I have no track record on him, so I have no idea if he will be disapproved or not. I decided the prudent course of action was to err on the side of caution and public safety, and to wait until he received a ND from the MSP.

Judge: That makes perfect sense to me, thank you Mr. FFL for giving priority to the safety of the citizens instead of making a quick buck.

Judge: Case dismissed.

Petitioners Attorney: Your Honor again I object...... Judge stops him in middle of sentence,

Judge: MR Petitioners Attorney, are you suggesting that I force Mr FFL to transfer a firearm to someone who has no previous ND's from the MSP?
Are you suggesting that we just take MR B's word for it that he is a good guy and not a threat the safety of our citizens? Is that what you are suggesting?

MR Petitioners Attorney: well um, a, umm, well I think ( he looks at the judge here) well, I, ummm, never mind your honor.

Judge: Thats what I thought you might say, case dismissed. Mr FFL, this court commends you on your decision to place public safety first and apologizes to you on behalf of MR Petitioners Attorney for wasting your time and taking you away from your business for a day.

Again just my opinion of how it might go.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Then the FFL goes on to explain that the law does not require him to give reasons, but for the sake of the court I have done 20 transfers with MR A, who is a designated MD collector ,
I have known him for years and have never had a "disapproved" on him from the MSP.

Mr B just came onto my shop to buy his 2nd handgun in the last 5 years so I have no track record on him, so I have no idea if he will be disapproved or not. I decided the prudent course of action was to err on the side of caution and public safety, and to wait until he received a ND from the MSP.

Judge: That makes perfect sense to me, thank you Mr. FFL for giving priority to the safety of the citizens instead of making a quick buck.

Judge: Case dismissed.

Petitioners Attorney: Your Honor again I object...... Judge stops him in middle of sentence,

Judge: MR Petitioners Attorney, are you suggesting that I force Mr FFL to transfer a firearm to someone who has no previous ND's from the MSP?
Are you suggesting that we just take MR B's word for it that he is a good guy and not a threat the safety of our citizens? Is that what you are suggesting?

MR Petitioners Attorney: well um, a, umm, well I think ( he looks at the judge here) well, I, ummm, never mind your honor.

Judge: Thats what I thought you might say, case dismissed. Mr FFL, this court commends you on your decision to place public safety first and apologizes to you on behalf of MR Petitioners Attorney for wasting your time and taking you away from your business for a day.

Again just my opinion of how it might go.

Come on... You don't think the attorney will have a whole host of character witnesses for Mr. B and call into question Mr. A's character over buying a pressure cooker last year?

Again, I am not going there, but I have seen a lot of crap in courtrooms. Heck one time I had my house broken into 25 years ago and the police recovered a camera, I went to court to testify it was in fact mine, and they had a complete life story on me. Not that I had anything bad there, but they basically accused me of lying since I had a speeding ticket and a DUI 10 years earlier.

 

[Celtic159]

seems that releasing after 7 days to someone who already recently recieved a not-disapproved from the mdsp would be reasonable and farely prudent.

It's possible though that in the course of the intervening days or weeks, the purchaser's status changed....Like maybe his wife filed an ex parte protective order against him. The FFL doesn't want that kind of publicity if they happened to release a firearm to a regular customer who suddenly is prohibited.

Can you imagine the media coverage if the guy in the above example shot his estranged wife with a pistol he'd received prior to the full check coming back?


The waiting sucks, but I can certainly understand why an FFL wouldn't release.

 

[tball]

You might want to contact the ATF Inspector General's office directly to file a complaint. The IG will ferret out anything that is not being done properly. ATF employees will bend over backwards to comply with the IG investigation. If something isn't being done correctly, the IG will see that it is corrected. No one at the ATF would dare going against the IG.

 

[mxrider]

First of all, the MSP does not want to be the POC. That it's a political thing. There is stuff going on right now to have then voluntarily remove themselves! That is the first news. The second is that you will start seeing many more FFL'S starting to release without receiving the background checks completed. There is something coming to all FFL'S regarding this situation.

 

[robmints]

Who is the point person on this, and what do you want us to do? I am not waiting on a regulated firearm but many ffls suspending transfers may effect someone's collecting ability.

 

[bogus130]

Where have you heard that MSP is trying to rid themselves of the NICS check responsibility?

 

[Haides]

So im confused here. Kinda doesnt apply to MD but oh well.

Federal law is 3 days...so how do long gun transfers in md work as c&c? AND how does VA and other states do C&C same day on EVERYTHING?

The 3 days is for NICS checks that get delayed.

Can you say discrimination? This could get ugly. IMHO, there would need to be clear, objective criteria to exercise that discretion. In today's PC world, I can imagine how that might go otherwise.

Do not interpret that I am advocating such things, but boy, that sure does start to open a can of worms.

Wait wait wait... Do you really think the "politically correct" would ever be arguing for 2A rights? Come on.

 

[Gbh]

Gbh, no disrespect intended here but the law says the FFL may transfer, not that he has to. I am not seeing why a FFL would have to worry about customer #2's attorney.

I see no need to answer in detail, ShallNotInfringe has done a fine job expressing my thinking on this.

The FFL would have no factual basis, nor the tools to determine which customer is likely to be "not disapproved" or disapproved. Look at some of the reasons for disapproval contained in the 17 databases. Once the FFL becomes selective and releases any firearm in 8 days, they better have a very good reason for the ones they don't release because at that point, they are randomly withholding people's property and may have to explain their rationale.

In my post I said that I don't blame my FFL's for not releasing to anyone.