Detailed NFA Trust Information

[normbal]

Has anyone else used this trust listed above and succeeded? I had a MSP Trooper email me his and it worked but I did not keep a copy. Deleted all my messages and it went too. Darn it.

Thanks

Jack schnaitman
J & S Gun Sales

You're talking about the one linked by the poster going by "maryland_shooter"?

I used it no problem. I added one brief paragraph about a duty to inform the executor if the trustee becomes unqualified to hold/handle NFA items. It's standard legal verbiage you can search out on the web.

 

[Lex Armarum]

I submitted my trust with ONLY the two cans I bought and was registering on Form 4s listed. The purpose of the trust was for NFA items, why put anything else on it? Worked no problems. Am resubmitting it this month with another can on it. Here's to another 6 month wait...

You're talking about the one linked by the poster going by "maryland_shooter"?

I used it no problem. I added one brief paragraph about a duty to inform the executor if the trustee becomes unqualified to hold/handle NFA items. It's standard legal verbiage you can search out on the web.

Sir, not to pick on you but your lack of foresight and understanding of trusts is a troubling problem I see with folks who draft their own trusts. First, do you know anything about trust law? Second, do you know how the ATF evaluates trusts? If you answered "yes" to both of these questions, then fine by me but I find most folks cannot answer these in the affirmative.

I you understand my second question, then you'll understand why it has absolutely NO BEARING on the first. As such, I will answer the second question first. The ATF does not conduct a legal analysis of the trust to check for validity under state law or common sense. The ATF takes a "We know a valid trust when we see one that looks like a professional drew it up. If it doesn't look professional, then we kick it back." That's why Maryland Shooter's trust made it through because, despite its flaws, it looks professional. However, just because a trust looks professional DOES NOT mean that it is well suited for your purposes.

That leads me to my first question. If the ATF isn't looking at your trust from a "legal perspective" but merely passing it through if it looks "professional" then how do you know that your trust is even valid and that you aren't illegally possessing NFA items under an invalid trust? Trust me, if the ATF ever decides to focus its crosshairs on you for any reason, you can bet that they will collaterally attack the trust as invalid under any criminal prosecution. If you do not know anything about trust law, how do you know if the language of the trust agreement handles the various situations that are particularly poignant under state and federal law such as death, disability, and disqualification? The truth is that many of the folks that have trusts drawn up by Quicken Willmaker off of some trust they found on the web do not know the first thing there is to know about trusts and can get themselves or their trustees in a world of hurt should the ATF raise any questions about the trust or the people under the trust. The ATF passing the trust through their works is not a stamp of approval or validity on the trust.

The bottom line: should the trust you've just copied from the web or quicken willmaker be declared invalid in any legal setting, you are now guilty of possessing an unregistered NFA item. 10 years and/or $25,000 is your prize. Have fun!

Tip of the Day: Don't play with fire unless you want to get burned.

 

[Murple]

Sir, not to pick on you but your lack of foresight and understanding of trusts is the penultimate problem I see with folks who draft their own trusts.

What's the ultimate problem?

 

[Lex Armarum]

What's the ultimate problem?

The ATF doesn't know a damn thing about trusts and just pushes these things through without any regard for what they're processing. That, ultimately, is what will get a lot of people in trouble with the most fickle agency on Earth, the ATF.

Shoestring machine gun indeed! hmmmph

EDIT: Poor choice of words on my part in the original post (quoted above). I have changed it to reflect that.

 

[aquaman]

The ATF doesn't know a damn thing about trusts and just pushes these things through without any regard for what they're processing. That, ultimately, is what will get a lot of people in trouble with the most fickle agency on Earth, the ATF.

Shoestring machine gun indeed! hmmmph

EDIT: Poor choice of words on my part in the original post (quoted above). I have changed it to reflect that.

If they cared they would have done something about it by now. And if they stamp your trust that means they approve it, its on them. As long as your not a prohibited person committing fraud to get a NFA toy I wouldn't worry. And if people are wrong about quicken I guess it will keep you in business

 

[Lex Armarum]

If they cared they would have done something about it by now. And if they stamp your trust that means they approve it, its on them. As long as your not a prohibited person committing fraud to get a NFA toy I wouldn't worry. And if people are wrong about quicken I guess it will keep you in business

See, that's what I'm talking about in terms of "lack of foresight." That will not be the ATFs view of things. By stamping it, they are not "legally" approving anything. Period. As for them caring, read the post you quoted. This is an agency that said "A" was legal one minute then changed its mind the next and made "A" illegal.

Look, I'm not going to beat around the bush; dealing with the ATF is only the first reason for having a valid trust. Now you have to think of your co-trustees, your estate planning issues, your possession issues if ever there is a problem, how the items are handled, stored, what laws affect the operation of the trust at which time, etc.

Frankly, having a non-lawyer or program draft a trust for you (especially when trust law is so State specific) or getting your trust off the internet is akin to having a construction worker design an electric grid for an entire city.

Trusts and Estates is still one of the areas of law where the "art of law" still exists. It's old law and isn't crystal clear because of its age. You really must understand the nuance and impact of issues that seem insignificant in the present to really get it right.

But hey, you guys do what you want. I can only say my piece and I've said it.

 

[Urban_Ops]

Ok, I got my trust written up and will be getting it notorized this week.
Next week I am going to send my app to the ATF, now as I understand it I will be sending the following:
-Form 1 for SBR Draco (2 copies)
-Compliance form
-Passport Photos (2)
-Copy of the notarized trust (nothing in Schedule A yet)
-$200 check

Upon receipt of the approval I fill the Schedule A in with the details of the SBR (Make, model, serial)

Then I send a copy of the updated Schedule A back to the ATF?

That sound about right?

Thanks !

p.s. Can I send in more than 1 app in the same envelope? I am going to do a .22 suppressor on a form 1 as well

 

[ar15dave]

No passport photo is required with a Trust.

Dave

 

[IlikeNFA]

You already own the Draco, so go ahead and add it to your Schedule A. Yes you can send more than 1 F1 in the envelope. Just don't mix with F4 as they go to a different address.

 

[Urban_Ops]

No passport photo is required with a Trust.

Dave

Really? I thought the trust just eliminated the CLEO signature and fingerprint cards.

 

[Norton]

Really? I thought the trust just eliminated the CLEO signature and fingerprint cards.

You can't photograph a trust any more than you can fingerprint one.

 

[Urban_Ops]

You can't photograph a trust any more than you can fingerprint one.

Doh, Of course, thank you !

 

[ar15dave]

You can't photograph a trust any more than you can fingerprint one.

Dave

 

[RobSky]

Does anyone know if the CLEO in Anne Arundel County will sign the NFA form?
Thanks

 

[Lex Armarum]

Does anyone know if the CLEO in Anne Arundel County will sign the NFA form?
Thanks

IIRC all CLEO signatures come from the MSP but others in the know will verify or clarify soon enough.

Ironic, I write NFA trusts for a living but I don't own a single NFA item because I can't afford to play...

 

[FHJ69]

You will... soon enough you will.

 

[RobSky]

IIRC all CLEO signatures come from the MSP but others in the know will verify or clarify soon enough.

Ironic, I write NFA trusts for a living but I don't own a single NFA item because I can't afford to play...

For my FFL03, of which I had to send a copy, I was told the the Chief of Police for AA County was the CLEO for my jurisdiction.

 

[Lex Armarum]

For my FFL03, of which I had to send a copy, I was told the the Chief of Police for AA County was the CLEO for my jurisdiction.

My understanding was that all local CLEOs were sending forms to the MSP for signature. There's only one way to solve this...

 

[DarthZed]

I almost went the online, template, download-your-own route on the trust; but ended up having Rusty do it. As he stated, just because your trust might have worked, doesn't mean that its valid. And if the ATF (or any other government agency) decides they want to prosecute you for any reason, they ARE going to investigate your trust. If its not correctly drafted (as in ALL the I's dotted and T's crossed), then you are well and truely screwed. The best you might hope for is to have all your NFA weapons confiscated, the worst would be jail time and a huge fine. Not worth it considering how reasonable Rusty's fees are.

 

[Lex Armarum]

I almost went the online, template, download-your-own route on the trust; but ended up having Rusty do it. As he stated, just because your trust might have worked, doesn't mean that its valid. And if the ATF (or any other government agency) decides they want to prosecute you for any reason, they ARE going to investigate your trust. If its not correctly drafted (as in ALL the I's dotted and T's crossed), then you are well and truely screwed. The best you might hope for is to have all your NFA weapons confiscated, the worst would be jail time and a huge fine. Not worth it considering how reasonable Rusty's fees are.

Thank you.