current ATF wait time

[erwos]

Looks like the anecdotal evidence that things are not getting worse and maybe even improving is now solid:
http://www.randominfo.net/NFA/WaitTimeTrend.php

Maybe I'll see my stamps before the end of the year after all!

 

[rsideout]

Makes sense. I was more thinking that you were sacrificing the opportunity for a .22LR conversion, but, hell, money is money.

I'm completely in NFA hell right now (6 forms in progress, and one of those is a form 3, so another six months after that gets back). *sigh* Almost bought jawn's suppressor from the classifieds, but decided I didn't want to deal with tying up another $400 of my money.

A .22LR option would be nice, but I already have a .22LR upper for my MAC. What I would really like is an M16 with some different .22LR uppers. Beltfed and American 180 mags would be fun. One day!

The price on Jawn's can was good. I half considered it, but I already have three .22LR cans, including the Thompson Machine CHD.

 

[erwos]

In that context, then, yeah, registered bolt makes sense. I'd love an M16 RR, but the chances of the wife letting me spend the money on that... not happening. I might get away with an M10 or M11 if I get a really nice bonus one year, maybe.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

In that context, then, yeah, registered bolt makes sense. I'd love an M16 RR, but the chances of the wife letting me spend the money on that... not happening. I might get away with an M10 or M11 if I get a really nice bonus one year, maybe.

Not to be rude, but you need to learn how to buy expensive guns! First step is buying things that you like but can resell at profit or at least break even. Buy as you go. Then when that time comes, liquidate those items, which if gun items will hopefully be as good as cash and buy the expensive gun!

For Example, my most recent purchase. A FA MG08. Not out of this world expensive but its in there between a M16 and an Uzi as far as price. I found one at a price I could not turn down. Within one week, while the gun was held for me, I sold a MG08 Sled, a MG34 parts kit with receiver and a Russian 1910 maxim parts kit, all at considerable profit. When I was done, I added $350 or less in cash out of pocket and bought the MG08. The wife was not talked to about it and the pocket book did not even feel the hit!

The key is buying smartly with things you like but will also resell quickly! You have to find your own niche market or at least one you can make or at least not lose money in. Maybe AK parts kits for you?

This is the way I have bought all my FA guns. My budget can't take a multi $k hit... but slow and stead saving in guns and gun related stuff can get you there.

Sorry, nothing to do with ATF wait time except that this method requires years of work to get into NFA guns. Makes the ATF wait look a lot easier. However it has got me 3 FA guns before I turn 30 years old having gotten a late start into guns.

I know many people say never sell... but if you don't you can't upgrade your collection. For those of us with Mortgages, Kids, a Wife and an overbearing State and Federal Tax without family money, you can't buy everything! Will I miss the items I sold, sure... but not as much as I will enjoy the MG08.

 

[erwos]

*shrugs* I also personally don't want to be heavily invested in FA guns. They're a really big investment risk, because if the MG registry ever opens up again at all, they're going to crater in value very suddenly. I can stand to lose a couple grand on a Mac, but I don't want to risk $20k in full auto guns.

I understand that some people do not think this will ever happen, but with the way things are going for the 2A, I think it's a distinct possibility. And I would be satisfied enough even if it only opened to .22LRs, or something along those lines.

 

[ar15dave]

Not to be rude, but you need to learn how to buy expensive guns! First step is buying things that you like but can resell at profit or at least break even. Buy as you go. Then when that time comes, liquidate those items, which if gun items will hopefully be as good as cash and buy the expensive gun!

I think you are WAY off here....

I myself am going the wait until a rich relative kicks the bucket and leaves me everything or the I won the lottery route. Or wait until the Zombie apocolyps and pick one up for free.

Actually, good advice IMBLITZVT. If I was seriously considering FA I would consider following that route.

Dave

 

[BenL]

*shrugs* I also personally don't want to be heavily invested in FA guns. They're a really big investment risk, because if the MG registry ever opens up again at all, they're going to crater in value very suddenly. I can stand to lose a couple grand on a Mac, but I don't want to risk $20k in full auto guns.

I understand that some people do not think this will ever happen, but with the way things are going for the 2A, I think it's a distinct possibility. And I would be satisfied enough even if it only opened to .22LRs, or something along those lines.

This is also my line of thinking.

A buddy just got his stamp for his H&K MP-5. He paid $18,500 for it. If the NFA law is ever found unconstitutional, it will lose most of its value.

 

[erwos]

It doesn't even need to be found unconstitutional. We just need someone to pull a Hughes amendment-style stunt at the last minute to reopen it. Even with some tight restrictions (corps/trusts only, maybe?) and higher fees, the whole market for FA guns would collapse.

 

[ar15dave]

OK this ain't looking good. Just called NFA to check on the status. One of my Form 4s is on hold. Probably because of the Multicaliber listed in Section 4c. But, have not talked to the person that put it on hold. I also have an SBR in on a Form 1 under a Trust. That is also on hold due to an issue with the form. Could not reach that person either. Waiting for call backs. hope the issues can be resolved quickly. In this case 2 out of 3 ain't good.

OK heard back from the person handling my Form 1. Apparently for now on when filling out a Form 1 or Form 4 Section 4C can have only one caliber. For a Form 1 you put additional calibers in Section 4H alaong with your engraving information. For a Form 4, if I understand him correctly, you set one caliber in Section 4c and send a letter in for the additional calibers.

Gentlemen was very nice and very helpful. Now waiting on the the call back about the Form 4.

Dave

 

[IMBLITZVT]

*shrugs* I also personally don't want to be heavily invested in FA guns. They're a really big investment risk, because if the MG registry ever opens up again at all, they're going to crater in value very suddenly. I can stand to lose a couple grand on a Mac, but I don't want to risk $20k in full auto guns.

I understand that some people do not think this will ever happen, but with the way things are going for the 2A, I think it's a distinct possibility. And I would be satisfied enough even if it only opened to .22LRs, or something along those lines.

Yeah I can understand. For some FA guns, the value would drop way way down. A Mac would be worth about 10% of what you pay. My Maxims would be worth about half. A M16 would drop to about 10% of the value... sure its all possible.

Here is the way I look at it. First its a hobby for me. You are going to spend money in any hobby that you don't usually get back. Most of the time its ammo cost for me. IMHO FA is fun enough that I don't want to go without it at any cost I can afford in hobby terms. So yeah buying a M16 might turn out to be like a Boat... a hole in the water you throw money in and never get back. However most hobbies are like this. So if it goes down to current AR15 prices... yeah it will suck in that way. However I also figure at that point, I will have some many cheap MGs the next day, it will be well worth it. Also you may see an increase in price of some MGs that are not made anymore because the demand will increase much more than the supply. Take a MG08/15. The parts alone are worth $4k and the Registered non-C&R gun is about $8k. So when the ban goes, the $8k will drop because anyone can make a new one. However the demand on parts might drive the price back to where it was before or higher. Now guns like the M16, Mac.. yeah no recovery there.

There are so many ways to look at it, WWII/Revolution/Zombies could break out and the M16 will be worth its weight in gold! The ban could be upheld, after all Heller was not great for FA people if you read it! They use MGs as an example of what was not being talked about in Heller. That might force prices higher.

In the end, I think you have to look at it and say would I pay this to shoot this? Just like any gun. Would I rather have ten AR15s or one M16? For me thats an easy M16 everytime in any config!

Also remember its not just FA guns where bans increased prices. Think of your semi AKs value if the ban was to die and then maybe the import ban died! You could be looking at $100 FA factory built AK! Or even just the FA ban... no one is going to want a semi AK...

Its all in how you "want" to look at it!

 

[erwos]

I can say with some confidence that if the NFA were gone tomorrow, I would be out by some tax stamps and engraving costs, but that's about it. I agree with you that some FA guns would still retain a lot of value - the MG08 is a great example. But, to take your value equation, to me, it's more like "would I like a loaded Saiga 12 SBS, a SA Colt Commando SBR, a SA 9mm Colt SMG SBR, a .22LR AR-15 SBR, a FA Mac, a SA PTR-32K SBR, and a tricked-out Rem 700... or a FA M16?" Ultimately, I'm going with the former on that one.

I like your point about SA guns being worth less if the FA ban is ever rescinded; it shouldn't be hard to convert SA guns to FA, as long as you chose the right ones.

 

[erwos]

OK heard back from the person handling my Form 1. Apparently for now on when filling out a Form 1 or Form 4 Section 4C can have only one caliber. For a Form 1 you put additional calibers in Section 4H alaong with your engraving information. For a Form 4, if I understand him correctly, you set one caliber in Section 4c and send a letter in for the additional calibers.

I'm kinda surprised you made this mistake; I thought it was pretty common knowledge that writing "multi" in the caliber field was a big no-no. I've actually had to engrave a caliber on a couple of my lowers because they were all marked multi. :-P

 

[IMBLITZVT]

... But, to take your value equation, to me, it's more like "would I like a loaded Saiga 12 SBS, a SA Colt Commando SBR, a SA 9mm Colt SMG SBR, a .22LR AR-15 SBR, a FA Mac, a SA PTR-32K SBR, and a tricked-out Rem 700... or a FA M16?" Ultimately, I'm going with the former on that one.

I like your point about SA guns being worth less if the FA ban is ever rescinded; it shouldn't be hard to convert SA guns to FA, as long as you chose the right ones.

At some point that value equation has to come into play. For me I have a base group of guns which span a wide range. I do not double up and I don't have a bunch of the same kind of stuff. I have a bit of everything and not much of anything. After this base group of guns, I have decided to put the rest of my funds into FA for the time being. I have a lot less time to shoot these days so when I do, I like to shoot what I have the most fun with, FA. For me, I will take the M16 any day over the group of guns listed. For example, I own two bolt guns, for a total of $265 spent! A RC K98 and a M44 Mosin are plenty. So at some point, you just have to decide what you want more. If for you, its a large list of less expensive guns... hey its your fun we are talking about and nothing wrong with that. However its not that you can't afford it... its that you are more interested in other things.

I'm kinda surprised you made this mistake; I thought it was pretty common knowledge that writing "multi" in the caliber field was a big no-no. I've actually had to engrave a caliber on a couple of my lowers because they were all marked multi. :-P

You guys go nuts about Calibers list on those forms. I just put the standard size round the gun comes with and a standard barrel. I don't feel any need to tell the ATF if I drop in a Cal conversion for a while... My Mac is marked 9mm with a very short barrel. I don't worry one bit when I drop in my 22 kit with a long barrel... Actually by listing several calibers you may limit yourself to them...

 

[erwos]

Yeah, you know, the last time I shot a FA gun (HK53), I just wasn't that blown away by the experience. Maybe it's true that I just don't care to spend my cash on that, at least at that price. *shrugs*

As long as the change to the gun is not permanent, I don't believe you need to inform the ATF about it. I also am not entirely sure you're even required by law to do so to begin with.

 

[rsideout]

I'm kinda surprised you made this mistake; I thought it was pretty common knowledge that writing "multi" in the caliber field was a big no-no. I've actually had to engrave a caliber on a couple of my lowers because they were all marked multi. :-P

The problems with listing "Multi" have been out there for years. I know that Dave didn't make that mistake. However the new issue is apparently not being able to list more than one specific caliber in that section. I have typically listed 3 or 4 calibers for all of my Form 1 SBR's. Something like .22/5.56/5.7/7.62/9mm. I have 6 stamps approved that way, including 2 earlier this year in March. My understanding is that they now apparently only allow one caliber to be listed in box 4c. The other calibers are to listed in box 4h.

 

[erwos]

Oho, now I get it. Yes, that's somewhat newer, albeit the information is still out there.

 

[Flipz]

The problems with listing "Multi" have been out there for years. I know that Dave didn't make that mistake. However the new issue is apparently not being able to list more than one specific caliber in that section. I have typically listed 3 or 4 calibers for all of my Form 1 SBR's. Something like .22/5.56/5.7/7.62/9mm. I have 6 stamps approved that way, including 2 earlier this year in March. My understanding is that they now apparently only allow one caliber to be listed in box 4c. The other calibers are to listed in box 4h.

This is correct. I have the same issue with mine and my forms are on their way from the ATF to my dealer for correction. Same thing happened to ViperRY, Dave, and myself.

 

[Flipz]

Oho, now I get it. Yes, that's somewhat newer, albeit the information is still out there.

The info may be out there at this point. But you have to understand that it wasn't when the forms were mailed out to the ATF 6-7 months ago.. This is relatively new and came out within the last 4 months. Prior to that it was perfectly fine to fill out forms this way. It's just to bad the ATF isn't grandfathering in forms sent in before this became a requirement.

 

[ar15dave]

Apparently it has been a no no all along to putting multiple calibers in box 4c. However it has been overlooked for years. The guy on the phone said they have a bunch new auditors and they are in the process of taking a closer look at all applications for correctness and things like lisitng multiple calibers in section 4c will no longer be acceptable.

Dave

 

[clandestine]

The info may be out there at this point. But you have to understand that it wasn't when the forms were mailed out to the ATF 6-7 months ago.. This is relatively new and came out within the last 4 months. Prior to that it was perfectly fine to fill out forms this way. It's just to bad the ATF isn't grandfathering in forms sent in before this became a requirement.

BATFE has required a single, specific caliber to be listed for almost 2 years now (No listing "Multi"). Its not a recent event.