Curio & Relic license

[Docster]

I am very curious if any of our members have been through a meeting with the ATF to review his or her collection?

There's been at least one mentioned in this thread by Mdeng in the C & R forum. Seems to be a rare occurrence.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=89178&page=2

 

[JustCuz]

I am very curious if any of our members have been through a meeting with the ATF to review his or her collection?

I know one collector who has had the ATF show up on his doorstep. He has a pretty small collection -- probably 20 guns, mostly rifles. He's a natural-born citizen of immigrant parents from Mexico, which may or may not have something to do with it...

 

[GNLaFrance]

I know one collector who has had the ATF show up on his doorstep.

Do you mean "show up on his doorstep" unannounced, or was this a prearranged visit? The difference is important.

 

[GBMaryland]

Letter from Maryland Attorney General's office

Ok,

One thing I've seen several times "does not constitute an offical opinion..."

What the heck does that mean? I mean really, if they put it on letter head and sign it, it's offical.

 

[K31]

Ok,

One thing I've seen several times "does not constitute an offical opinion..."

What the heck does that mean? I mean really, if they put it on letter head and sign it, it's offical.

IIRC it's an official opinion only if a member of the state government asks the SA for an opinion.

 

[GNLaFrance]

Ok,

One thing I've seen several times "does not constitute an official opinion..."

What the heck does that mean? I mean really, if they put it on letter head and sign it, it's official.

I understand it to mean it can't be used as a defense in court.

 

[JustCuz]

Do you mean "show up on his doorstep" unannounced, or was this a prearranged visit? The difference is important.

He says they just showed up. I wasn't there. YMMV.

Edit: FWIW, he said it was practically a social visit. His records were in order, and he felt like he was showing his collection to other interested collectors.

 

[Threeband]

He says they just showed up. I wasn't there. YMMV.

Edit: FWIW, he said it was practically a social visit. His records were in order, and he felt like he was showing his collection to other interested collectors.

IF that really happened, it's very, very wrong. He should have politely suggested they contact him according to their own regulations to schedule an audit.

An audit HAS to be scheduled in advance. The license holder has the option to hold the audit at the ATF office.

I have no trouble believing that individual agents might employ incorrect procedures sometimes, but that doesn't mean they are acting legitimately if they do so.

Your friend should have told them to go home, and send him something by mail.

 

[JustCuz]

I know that collectors may opt to have their inspection performed at an alternative location, but I had not heard that requests for inspection must be made by mail in advance.

Looking at § 478.23 - Right of entry and examination - section (c), I don't see anything about advanced notice.

Could you show me the statute? I'd like to have it on hand for my own possible future benefit. Thanks.

 

[kalister1]

Quoted from the link in the above post


Except as provided in paragraph
(b), any ATF officer, when there is reasonable
cause to believe a violation of
the Act has occurred and that evidence
of the violation may be found on the
premises of any licensed manufacturer,
licensed importer, licensed dealer, or
licensed collector, may, upon demonstrating
such cause before a Federal
magistrate and obtaining from the
magistrate a warrant authorizing
entry, enter during business hours (or,
in the case of a licensed collector, the
hours of operation) the premises, including
places of storage, of any such
licensee for the purpose of inspecting



End of Quote

We are talking about a search warrant here, NOT an inspection.

 

[GNLaFrance]

He says they just showed up. I wasn't there. YMMV.

That is very worrisome. If they "just showed up", they were fishing. They had a reason to try to talk their way in and look around without alerting him.

Edit: FWIW, he said it was practically a social visit. His records were in order, and he felt like he was showing his collection to other interested collectors.

I'm sure some of them are smart enough to maintain a friendly attitude while they poke around so as not to alert him that they are looking for illegal activity.

Your friend ought to bone up on the appropriate laws and regulations.

 

[JustCuz]

First, I want to make it clear that I am not arguing what is "right" or "wrong" about the LAWS that govern C&R inspections; I am only trying to clarify what those laws allow because, when we agree to become Federally-Licensed Collectors, we agree to these conditions.

Threeband and GNLaFrance have both suggested that it is the ATF's obligation to schedule inspections in advance. I have asked to see that statute or regulation because I want to know that it is my right if I am visited by the ATF. I still haven't seen that statute, so if they came knocking at my door and I spouted off about something that wasn't accurate, imagine how that would look to the agents.

That said, the snippit posted above is only section B of the statute that covers inspections. Below is the entire provision. I have italicized and underlined paragraph C, which would seem to be the applicable law governing "typical," routine inspections. Collectors do have the option of having the inspection at an ATF office, but I still don't see where the ATF is required to schedule inspections "in advance" "before showing up at your door." Maybe that should be law! Maybe they should schedule inspections in advance! And maybe it's something that MSI and other groups could address. I just don't see it in the law that actually exists at this time.

Any productive input or reference to a statute I don't know about is greatly appreciated.

27 C.F.R. § 478.23 Right of entry and examination.
Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms


Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
Subpart C—Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

§ 478.23 Right of entry and examination.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), any ATF officer, when there is reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred and that evidence of the violation may be found on the premises of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, may, upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, enter during business hours (or, in the case of a licensed collector, the hours of operation) the premises, including places of storage, of any such licensee for the purpose of inspecting or examining:
(1) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee under this part and
(2) Any inventory of firearms or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer at such premises or any firearms curios or relics or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed collector at such premises.
(b) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during business hours the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, ammunition and firearms referred to in paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) In the course of a reasonable inquiry during the course of a criminal investigation of a person or persons other than the licensee,
(2) For insuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part:
(i) Not more than once during any 12-month period, or
(ii) At any time with respect to records relating to a firearm involved in a criminal investigation that is traced to the licensee, or
(3) When such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation.
(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises.
(d) The inspections and examinations provided by this section do not authorize an ATF officer to seize any records or documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. If an ATF officer seizes such records or documents, copies shall be provided the licensee within a reasonable time.
[T.D. ATF–270, 53 FR 10492, Mar. 31, 1988; as amended by T.D. ATF–363, 60 FR 17450, Apr. 6, 1995]

 

[GNLaFrance]

I think the answer is right there in front of you.

You are an ATF officer. You want to inspect my collection. If there is no cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred, then it would make much more sense to contact me first and set up a time and place, wouldn't it? Driving to my house without first determining if I am home to begin with, or which venue I want to use for the inspection, seems a likely waste of time and taxpayer money.

If the ATF knocks on your door without previous notice and insists on seeing your collection and books, they should be doing so in the course of a criminal investigation, and they should have a warrant. In that case, you are best advised to cooperate, say nothing, and contact your lawyer immediately.

I've called the Baltimore Division and left a message to call me back. Perhaps you could try calling, too:

Division Contact Information
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Baltimore Field Division
31 Hopkins Plaza, 5th Floor
Baltimore, Maryland 21201 USA
Voice (443) 965-2000
Fax (443) 965-2001
BaltimoreDiv@atf.gov

 

[kalister1]

Anybody can knock on anybodies door anytime they want to. (that is a lot of any's)
The Police can knock on your door and ask to come in, without a warrant they cannot just walk in. The same with the ATF, the last sentence gives the Collector the option of were the inspection takes place, so they are telling you they cannot just walk in.
If that last sentence were to be left out, that would change everything (Another any)

 

[mvee]

In the past I think some of the agents were mistakenly initiating a C&R inspection as if it were a FFL01 inspection.

Anyways here is a thread where several people tell what happened with their inspections.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=7978

 

[JustCuz]

Anybody can knock on anybodies door anytime they want to. (that is a lot of any's)
The Police can knock on your door and ask to come in, without a warrant they cannot just walk in. The same with the ATF, the last sentence gives the Collector the option of were the inspection takes place, so they are telling you they cannot just walk in.
If that last sentence were to be left out, that would change everything (Another any)

This.

The law does not require the ATF to give advanced notice of an inspection, but it does give the collector the option to have said inspection done elsewhere. Anything else is simply conjecture.

 

[yellowsled]

Letter from Maryland Attorney General's office

"If the weapon was being purchased
within Maryland, and fell within the definition of "regulated firearm," an application to transfer
would have to be submitted to the Maryland State Police, a criminal background check would be
conducted and the transaction would be subject to the seven day waiting period."

= 2 Md residents can meet out of the state to transfer a "regulated firearm" such as a hundgun that is on the C&R list or over 50 years old.