coyote rifleworks trust

[PJDiesel]

You do things your way. I'll do things my way, but stop telling me your way is better. I could care less about your "Enter name here" trust.

Jim Smith

Hmmm....

Don't remember ever saying "my" (your words) way was better.

Just so long as you understand yours was the same thing, except, you paid someone to fill in the blanks and (apparently) claim that it is ironclad.

 

[PJDiesel]

I'll check back in a few days for that case law showing examples. That's a whole lot more convincing than....... Mine is better than yours!

 

[j_h_smith]

Here are a few thing for you to chew on.

Common Problem #1 in Generic Trusts used as Gun Trusts

Let’s discuss a common situation with Gun Trusts. You have a family and you want to own NFA items. You love your wife and do not want her to go to prison because while you were at the range the police came by to check on a burglar alarm and discovered your short-barreled rifle registered in only your name; but that your wife had access to because you gave her the combination to the safe so she could use your handgun if necessary. So you use our generic form trust and you list your wife’s name as Trustee so she will be able to have LEGAL access to your short-barreled rifle (which she probably shoots well because it is light and the suppressor makes it quiet ). Texas is a community property state. Was it your intention in creating this trust to make even your separate property into community property? Did your wife join you in executing the trust? The generic form trust we are looking at is unclear on the intent of the Grantor as well as giving a non-professional any clue that it might or might not be necessary for the wife to join in the execution of the trust.

And what happens if one day divorce hits our happy hypothetical family? As written, the generic form trust says that “If, in the judgment of the Trustee, the Grantor becomes incapacitated by reason of legal incapacity or other infirmity, Trustee shall have full authority…” That seems like a remarkably broad grant of power doesn’t it? The same Trustee who has full authority to manage all the trust property also has the authority to declare you incapacitated and continue to manage the property. Additionally, the generic form trust goes on to say that the Trustee must be given 30 days notice before removal by the Grantor and that the Grantor is powerless to modify or alter the powers of the Trustee without the consent of the Trustee. Between this and the generic reference to the Texas Trust Act powers, anyone named as a Trustee has the power to find the Grantor incapacitated based only on their own judgment, as well as the power to sell Trust property, take loans against it, etc.

Even if it is obvious that there is a conflict between the Trustee and the Grantor, the Grantor cannot remove the Trustee without 30 days notice or restrict the powers of the Trustee without their consent. How long would it take for a registered M16 lower to sell for say $200? Less than 30 days? Will a court be willing to invalidate a sale to a third party when the Trustee clearly had those powers under the terms of the trust? Those can be expensive questions to resolve through the court system. And that broad grant of power with little ability to revoke it may be a problem in a contentious divorce.

And even if you can revoke the trust successfully - what are you going to do with the NFA items? If you revoke the trust, they will have to be transferred to the individuals who established the trust. Assuming that divorce isn't already complicating that issue, one of the common reasons for an NFA trust is that the CLEO will not sign off on the proper form. If the ATF will not approve the transfer to the individual or individuals, then being able to revoke the trust isn't a very helpful means of resolving any problems caused by the drafting of your trust.

Other Common Problems Not Addressed by This Generic Trust - A Short Rundown

These are just a few examples of commonly occurring problem with generic trusts that this trust doesn’t really address well. There are others :
1. This trust has no provisions for what happens if a Grantor, Trustee or Beneficiary becomes a prohibited person.
2. It has no provisions dealing with tax issues raised by gifting NFA items to a trust (more important in transferable machineguns or items with a value of greater than $10,000 in a single year)
3. This trust terminates on the death of the Grantor. What happens if your beneficiary is a minor child unable to possess such items due to state or federal law when you die? Will the Trustee be forced to sell off the items in order to terminate the Trust and comply with the law?
4. The trust isn't really designed to have multiple Trustees. What happens if there is more than one Trustee named (say you and a spouse) and you each have a different opinion about what is the best course of action for dealing with Trust property. Who wins that argument?
5. The Trust has no provisions dealing with waste. Remember, the purpose of a trust is to manage a future interest in property for someone else for their benefit. What happens if a beneficiary objects to the use of trust property because shooting that transferable M249 SAW will reduce its future value? Does that beneficiary have a claim against the Trustee? Of course, the Grantor could always just revoke the trust - assuming the CLEO will sign off...

 

[Evojoeix]

haha. so only cheap people use trusts like this? you really think that your lawyer doesnt have these things already made up and fills in the same exact info i entered into the blanks? you are just being nieve....

i guess driving out of your way to your lawyer, wasting your time in his office just to see his pretty face is worth the extra hunderds of dollars

 

[Evojoeix]

Vast vast majority of us went the trust route (one way or the other) to GET toys. If they told me I needed to stand on one foot while counting backwards from 10 I would have probably done that too. For most of us this is a means to GET NFA items. I'm not building an empire of guns and suppressors to pass down to generations.

exactly, im not looking to have a sense of security of where these items will be when i die. i could careless what happens to them at that point, im dead. i will have all the suprressors, SBRs, and full auto junk i want in heaven

 

[j_h_smith]

BTW, did you pay for any of your firearms or suppressors suing your own money or did you use money from the trust?

 

[shaddydan]

In my case, nobody else in the family is really into shooting. They don't care bout my guns.

 

[j_h_smith]

haha. so only cheap people use trusts like this? you really think that your lawyer doesnt have these things already made up and fills in the same exact info i entered into the blanks? you are just being nieve....

i guess driving out of your way to your lawyer, wasting your time in his office just to see his pretty face is worth the extra hunderds of dollars

Yes, it most certainly is. Do some research and you will find that most "Enter name here" are deficient in many ways. But I'm not here to point out your trust's shortcomings.

 

[j_h_smith]

exactly, im not looking to have a sense of security of where these items will be when i die. i could careless what happens to them at that point, im dead. i will have all the suprressors, SBRs, and full auto junk i want in heaven

Then you are getting exactly what you paid for.

Jim Smith

 

[j_h_smith]

In my case, nobody else in the family is really into shooting. They don't care bout my guns.

You should still protect your family by having a properly thought out trust. I'm not telling anyone what to do, but when people tell me I'm wrong for going to a lawyer to have a personal trust written, I won't stand for it.

Jim Smith

 

[dontpanic]

Here are a few thing for you to chew on.

Common Problem #1 in Generic Trusts used as Gun Trusts

Let’s discuss a common situation with Gun Trusts. You have a family and you want to own NFA items. You love your wife and do not want her to go to prison because while you were at the range the police came by to check on a burglar alarm and discovered your short-barreled rifle registered in only your name; but that your wife had access to because you gave her the combination to the safe so she could use your handgun if necessary. So you use our generic form trust and you list your wife’s name as Trustee so she will be able to have LEGAL access to your short-barreled rifle (which she probably shoots well because it is light and the suppressor makes it quiet ). Texas is a community property state. Was it your intention in creating this trust to make even your separate property into community property? Did your wife join you in executing the trust? The generic form trust we are looking at is unclear on the intent of the Grantor as well as giving a non-professional any clue that it might or might not be necessary for the wife to join in the execution of the trust.

And what happens if one day divorce hits our happy hypothetical family? As written, the generic form trust says that “If, in the judgment of the Trustee, the Grantor becomes incapacitated by reason of legal incapacity or other infirmity, Trustee shall have full authority…” That seems like a remarkably broad grant of power doesn’t it? The same Trustee who has full authority to manage all the trust property also has the authority to declare you incapacitated and continue to manage the property. Additionally, the generic form trust goes on to say that the Trustee must be given 30 days notice before removal by the Grantor and that the Grantor is powerless to modify or alter the powers of the Trustee without the consent of the Trustee. Between this and the generic reference to the Texas Trust Act powers, anyone named as a Trustee has the power to find the Grantor incapacitated based only on their own judgment, as well as the power to sell Trust property, take loans against it, etc.

Even if it is obvious that there is a conflict between the Trustee and the Grantor, the Grantor cannot remove the Trustee without 30 days notice or restrict the powers of the Trustee without their consent. How long would it take for a registered M16 lower to sell for say $200? Less than 30 days? Will a court be willing to invalidate a sale to a third party when the Trustee clearly had those powers under the terms of the trust? Those can be expensive questions to resolve through the court system. And that broad grant of power with little ability to revoke it may be a problem in a contentious divorce.

And even if you can revoke the trust successfully - what are you going to do with the NFA items? If you revoke the trust, they will have to be transferred to the individuals who established the trust. Assuming that divorce isn't already complicating that issue, one of the common reasons for an NFA trust is that the CLEO will not sign off on the proper form. If the ATF will not approve the transfer to the individual or individuals, then being able to revoke the trust isn't a very helpful means of resolving any problems caused by the drafting of your trust.

Other Common Problems Not Addressed by This Generic Trust - A Short Rundown

These are just a few examples of commonly occurring problem with generic trusts that this trust doesn’t really address well. There are others :
1. This trust has no provisions for what happens if a Grantor, Trustee or Beneficiary becomes a prohibited person.
2. It has no provisions dealing with tax issues raised by gifting NFA items to a trust (more important in transferable machineguns or items with a value of greater than $10,000 in a single year)
3. This trust terminates on the death of the Grantor. What happens if your beneficiary is a minor child unable to possess such items due to state or federal law when you die? Will the Trustee be forced to sell off the items in order to terminate the Trust and comply with the law?
4. The trust isn't really designed to have multiple Trustees. What happens if there is more than one Trustee named (say you and a spouse) and you each have a different opinion about what is the best course of action for dealing with Trust property. Who wins that argument?
5. The Trust has no provisions dealing with waste. Remember, the purpose of a trust is to manage a future interest in property for someone else for their benefit. What happens if a beneficiary objects to the use of trust property because shooting that transferable M249 SAW will reduce its future value? Does that beneficiary have a claim against the Trustee? Of course, the Grantor could always just revoke the trust - assuming the CLEO will sign off...

Who told you this? My trust addresses every one of the items you just listed.

To each his own. I am happy with my trust and you are happy with yours. I think the "cookie cutter" trusts are probably better now than when they first started.

I actually feel better about my trust now than I did before.

Thank you

 

[Evojoeix]

Who told you this? My trust addresses every one of the items you just listed.

To each his own. I am happy with my trust and you are happy with yours. I think the "cookie cutter" trusts are probably better now than when they first started.

I actually feel better about my trust now than I did before.

Thank you

i was about to say the same

a lot of stuff doesnt apply to me. no one will have access to my stuff. i highly doubt ill have a divorce to worry about, and my girl has her own guns, no need to borrow my stuff. haha

but its all good, i wasnt trying to argue with you j_h_smith, everyone has different ways to do things.

 

[md_al]

Go with what works.

 

[Evojoeix]

heres a little praise for coyote rifleworks, in case anyone was looking to use them in the future.... as i read through my trust i noticed i put my city in where it should of been the county i live in. i emailed them and told them what i did, and within 5 minutes (at 10:50pm mind you) they editied my trust and sent me a new version

 

[dontpanic]

heres a little praise for coyote rifleworks, in case anyone was looking to use them in the future.... as i read through my trust i noticed i put my city in where it should of been the county i live in. i emailed them and told them what i did, and within 5 minutes (at 10:50pm mind you) they editied my trust and sent me a new version

That's great service.

 

[Pinecone]

paranoid much?

i know plenty of people who use these types of trusts without any issues

Have any of them been actually tested in court??????

 

[Pinecone]

Please cite at least one of example of each situation.

1) Someone with one of these mystical "ironclad" documents that was required to (and) had it successfully defended in a court of law.

2) Someone with a template trust (literally tens of thousands of us out there) whom was in a legal situation where the trust failed, was found to be illegal or where they were required to surrender any property.

I'll give you a few days to reply.

It is informing people of the possible issues.

Then it is up the INDIVIDUAL to determine what level of risk they are willing to accept for what savings. Like many things in life, it is a risk analysis.

But you would rather just tell people there is NO risk from a one size fits all trust?

 

[PJDiesel]

No, I'd rather see some proof one is superior to the other, so far mainly what I've heard is how much more one costs.

 

[Pinecone]

i was about to say the same

a lot of stuff doesnt apply to me. no one will have access to my stuff. i highly doubt ill have a divorce to worry about, and my girl has her own guns, no need to borrow my stuff. haha

but its all good, i wasnt trying to argue with you j_h_smith, everyone has different ways to do things.

You do realize that if you live with someone who is not on your trust, that you NFA items have to locked up, in a container that no one not on the trust can access?

So if she has her own guns, you might now need two safes/

 

[Evojoeix]

You do realize that if you live with someone who is not on your trust, that you NFA items have to locked up, in a container that no one not on the trust can access?

So if she has her own guns, you might now need two safes/

i realize that, no one has access to my firearms except me