Confirmed: HQL Needed to Take Possession of Handgun After September 30

[Dave T]

I believe per contract law, I have taken possession of my handgun when it was offered to me to buy and I accepted the offer and paid for it. A Federal Firearms Representative (Licensee), or FFL, is now holding my possession (handgun) until the state can confirm that indeed, I can continue to possess my handgun legally. One law says I own it and another determines if I can own it legally. The first action supports that I am the owner. The 77 app in the hands of the MSP indicates that I am the owner. Seems I meet the pre Oct. 1 requirement.

Well... possession being 9/10ths of the law.. and the fact that the FFL currently possesses it...

 

[IGOR455]

i too read sb 281 and i thought , no read i know that retired military are exempt as well as retired police. as one of each, retired police sgt and retired army reserve officer i was delightedfor this fact. do i think the whole thing is stupid of course , but we had no say in teh finial bill so short of lawsuits we all hope we have to live with it./
folks bust my chops all the time about being a retired police, pensions too good carry ability nationwide and all that. it hasnt changed much since i was active, everybody hates the police but very few want to do it.
i did it for 40 yrs and served in the military for 20 years. any thing i get out of it ill take. i also am a disabled vet from a war a long time ago and anything the va gives me ill take also.
dont know what all of you folks do and dont care either just hope you are happy doing it. i thought the idea of the fingerprinting was to establish you r id. hey both the dept and the army surely did that over and over.
now i m not saying that folks who have clearances ie nsa etc havent had their id established but the pols didnt care.
so please dont bust my chops because of my careers. i didnt writethe damned bill and i surely didnt pass it. we voted for these clowns or somebody did

 

[fabsroman]

I believe per contract law, I have taken possession of my handgun when it was offered to me to buy and I accepted the offer and paid for it. A Federal Firearms Representative (Licensee), or FFL, is now holding my possession (handgun) until the state can confirm that indeed, I can continue to possess my handgun legally. One law says I own it and another determines if I can own it legally. The first action supports that I am the owner. The 77 app in the hands of the MSP indicates that I am the owner. Seems I meet the pre Oct. 1 requirement.

Good luck on that interpretation of contract law. You have a binding contract when there is an offer and acceptance. After there is a binding contract, both sides need to perform. That is, you need to pay what you agreed to pay and the dealer needs to deliver the goods. Delivery has NOT been made until you take possession of the handgun. Hence, the contract has not been completed until you walk out of the store with the handgun.

Think of it the other way. What if the shop never gives you the handgun? Has the contract actually been completed? Would you want the contract to be looked at as actually completed at that point after you have paid for the firearm but not received it.

More importantly, the AG is not looking at the sale that way. They are viewing release of the handgun as the conclusion of the sale. I doubt many dealers will not be requiring the HQL after October 1, 2013 before they release a handgun.

 

[Brooklyn]

Good luck on that interpretation of contract law. You have a binding contract when there is an offer and acceptance. After there is a binding contract, both sides need to perform. That is, you need to pay what you agreed to pay and the dealer needs to deliver the goods. Delivery has NOT been made until you take possession of the handgun. Hence, the contract has not been completed until you walk out of the store with the handgun.

Think of it the other way. What if the shop never gives you the handgun? Has the contract actually been completed? Would you want the contract to be looked at as actually completed at that point after you have paid for the firearm but not received it.

More importantly, the AG is not looking at the sale that way. They are viewing release of the handgun as the conclusion of the sale. I doubt many dealers will not be requiring the HQL after October 1, 2013 before they release a handgun.

If the transfer is denied then the dealer can never perform. Is this a breech? if not why not? The contact can not require transfer of possession since the dealer has no power to guarantee performance. I claim that The contact of sale is transfer of legal title not possession and is final. Transfer is governed by the sate and is not within the power of the dealer to conclude, and therefore no such promise of performance can be made, in good faith. Not that this matters as the transfer is what is at issue and the state can deny that without affecting legal tittle. The gun could then be sold to a 3rd party, the funds returned net any fees, or the gun could be gifted to a relative.



A separate contract governs transfer vs sale. Sale does not always imply transfer of possession. Here the sale contact has completed ( assuming its paid in full prior to msp paperwork ).

I know this sounds pendantic, but it may matter someday, esp if there may be a 'takings' claim

 

[Brooklyn]

Tell that to the individual people that have handguns in the log jam that their dealers will not release until the ND comes back. Telling those people that it is ALL the state's fault is not true, and nobody hates anything more than being lied to. Well, maybe other than being punched or shot, but you get my point. Honesty is the best bet.

How does that saying go? You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time.

I have told them and will continue to tell them. I also tell them to switch dealers if possible . They need to know that MSp is not allowing NICS checks as well.


But in the end they will need to decide who to fight. If they fight the dealers they will lose even if they win, and there will be fewer dealers and even higher prices --- I tell them that as well.

 

[Mr H]

Why would they care if there's another huge backlog? We've already made one of those and raised all kinds of hell, no one important enough to make a change could care less about it. They're just happy to get their $50.

This, IMO, is about anything BUT the money... at least for now.

Impeding the release of firearms is the goal, plain and simple.

Now, once the appropriate bottlenecks are in place, established, and permanent?? Well, THEN they will look at ratchetin up the costs, to drive even more people out of the gun-owning world.

SOP for MD



2014

 

[Winterborn]

I hope gun dealers are ready for the enormous drop in sales on handguns come the 23rd of Sept......

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[LexTalionis926]

Does anyone know where/when we can start signing up for the HQL? I'd like to get a jump start if possible.

 

[chillman]

I don't believe there is anything yet. I bet with the background check backlog and the backlog that will be created when everyone starts applying for an HQL that we will see 6 months to a year with no handgun transfers. People like me who purchased from a shop not doing lawful transfers will be waiting a long time.

Does anyone know where/when we can start signing up for the HQL? I'd like to get a jump start if possible.

 

[gungate]

For all of you that think the courts are going to "help us all out", how is that working out for G&S? I told my friend when he excitedly said G&S was ruled unconstitutional that you will never be able to conceal carry in MD.

 

[Grits]

Good luck on that interpretation of contract law. You have a binding contract when there is an offer and acceptance. After there is a binding contract, both sides need to perform. That is, you need to pay what you agreed to pay and the dealer needs to deliver the goods. Delivery has NOT been made until you take possession of the handgun. Hence, the contract has not been completed until you walk out of the store with the handgun.

Oh, but I did buy my gun in Pa. Paid with a credit card (dealer wrote up a sales slip with my name and purchase), and it was shipped to a FFL, per law. When it arrived I checked out my purchase (fondled?) and retained my sales slip. The 77r was completed and the rest is history. That's my gun, papers have my name on it. All done before October 1.

Now I agree with you if the case is, you have promised to buy a gun from your FFL when the ND comes back. In other words you haven't paid one cent yet.

In my case, who owns the gun, me, the FFL or Maryland?? the legal fact still remains, can I legally own the gun? The answer is NO, not until I am granted that right with a ND from the MSP.

 

[scottp999]

Oh, but I did buy my gun in Pa. Paid with a credit card (dealer wrote up a sales slip with my name and purchase), and it was shipped to a FFL, per law. When it arrived I checked out my purchase (fondled?) and retained my sales slip. The 77r was completed and the rest is history. That's my gun, papers have my name on it. All done before October 1.

Now I agree with you if the case is, you have promised to buy a gun from your FFL when the ND comes back. In other words you haven't paid one cent yet.

In my case, who owns the gun, me, the FFL or Maryland?? the legal fact still remains, can I legally own the gun? The answer is NO, not until I am granted that right with a ND from the MSP.

I understand your position, but the Attorney General sees it differently. Look closer at the letter. The AG does not dispute the purchase, "You have asked for advice concerning whether a person who purchases a handgun before October 1, 2013 may accept delivery of the handgun if it is delayed past October 1 due to delays in background checks without first obtaining a handgun qualification license. It is my view that they may not". Emphasis by me.

They way the law it written, purchase, rent, receive (aka transfer) are different methods. If it is in the dealers possession on Oct 1, they will need to see your Handgun Qualification License to transfer it back to you (for you to receive it). Nothing to do with the fact that you are the valid purchaser. It is against the law for them to hand it to you without the HQL.

That's the AG opinion anyway. If dealers follow that, lots of people probably waiting more months for the HQL process to get flowing.

 

[Grits]

And to think he is a Redskins fan. I used to respect his Skins football opinions. Now he can just keep them to himself. No credibility there!

 

[Dave T]

Oh, but I did buy my gun in Pa. Paid with a credit card (dealer wrote up a sales slip with my name and purchase), and it was shipped to a FFL, per law. When it arrived I checked out my purchase (fondled?) and retained my sales slip. The 77r was completed and the rest is history. That's my gun, papers have my name on it. All done before October 1.

Now I agree with you if the case is, you have promised to buy a gun from your FFL when the ND comes back. In other words you haven't paid one cent yet.

In my case, who owns the gun, me, the FFL or Maryland?? the legal fact still remains, can I legally own the gun? The answer is NO, not until I am granted that right with a ND from the MSP.

My interpretation of the situation is that when it comes to firearms in MD, ownership and possession don't always coincide. Someone may own a gun, but they may not be able to legally possess it. In which case they'd have to resell it or gift it. Do others agree?

What happens after Oct 1 if someone sends a handgun to a gunsmith for repairs and the gun is held by the smith overnight. Would the owner need an HQL to get it back?

 

[TimGB]

I don't believe there is anything yet. I bet with the background check backlog and the backlog that will be created when everyone starts applying for an HQL that we will see 6 months to a year with no handgun transfers. People like me who purchased from a shop not doing lawful transfers will be waiting a long time.

I never thought about that - how long it might take MSP to issue the HQL considering the current backlog on processing.

Also, while filling out paperwork on stripped lowers yesterday my brother and I were kicking around whether with the HQL all of the redundant paperwork will go away. It would seem like you could just plunk down you HQL and maybe sign in one spot and be done. I realize that is not likely though.

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[MJD438]

I never thought about that - how long it might take MSP to issue the HQL considering the current backlog on processing.

Also, while filling out paperwork on stripped lowers yesterday my brother and I were kicking around whether with the HQL all of the redundant paperwork will go away. It would seem like you could just plunk down you HQL and maybe sign in one spot and be done. I realize that is not likely though.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

Asked and answered, both here and during the GA session. HQL does not remove the 77R process; it is strictly an additional criteria which must be met in order to purchase starting 0001/01OCT2013.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Asked and answered, both here and during the GA session. HQL does not remove the 77R process; it is strictly an additional criteria which must be met in order to purchase starting 0001/01OCT2013.

Yep. Double loop (2 background checks) coming up for first purchases after 10/1.

 

[daggo66]

Does anyone know where/when we can start signing up for the HQL? I'd like to get a jump start if possible.

It doesn't exist until 10/1. They haven't even announced how to do it yet.

 

[ironpony]

Transfer to a releasing FFL. Might cost a couple more dollars.

Can it be that easy?

If purchasing for self defense what is a normal budget for family safety?

I trust the shop in Millersville.
Done! (waiting for voting season now)

I'll be in the reloading forum.

 

[Grits]

Asked and answered, both here and during the GA session. HQL does not remove the 77R process; it is strictly an additional criteria which must be met in order to purchase starting 0001/01OCT2013.

See, this is what I am saying. There are two different requirements. One is to purchase and one to own. If the HQL was already in effect 100 days ago, I would not have been able to purchase my handgun, which I did already. I am basically only waiting to see if I can keep it with a ND. I still think AG's opinion is flawed, maybe more about timing and procedure than the stated law itself. Still think a good lawyer can shoot the AG OP down.