Churches during these trying times

[T-Man]

I looked for the phase god helps those who helps themeselves and found it is not a bible phrase but I did find something from the sanskrit that even though it isnt christian, has the ring of truth

"to those who think if we pray to god, god will come and deliver us;
to those who think god is going to deliver us only if we believe in this or that form of god (whether indian or not);

to them - god will not come down and stand on your doorstep like a guard, will not be with you all the time like a body guard. while faith is important, it is the intelligence that god gives along with other skills that intelligence/mind can use, that ultimately saves us."

Nope, not in the Bible and pretty anti-Biblical at that. God does ask us to do our part, but the entire structure of the Christian faith is based on Jesus dying for us when we were incapable of helping ourselves - the Bible said we were dead in our sins. Dead people cannot do a thing to help themselves.

And:

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. 3I call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised, And I am saved from my enemies.…

God does watch over and protect us, His plans sometimes diverge from our expectations though.

Honest question:

How do you apply this to what happened at the Charleston church?

Those people were apparently of faith but were harmed. I mean no malice in my question. I'm honestly struggling with these sorts of questions.

Jesus was very clear with his disciples -- He told them and all those who came after that we would have troubles and would be persecuted, the world killed Him after all, and this world is not our home -- but that this short time in the world preaching to others as His ambassadors was worth it as the reward is an eternity of no tears, no pain, no troubles. The peace that surpasses all understanding is based upon that truth.

We are doing the book of Acts in church, the account of the church of the Apostles and what is interesting is at times God miraculously frees Peter, Paul and the Apostles from prison and certain death, sending an angel to do so and even raises Paul from the dead, but at other times Herod is allowed to take James, Jesus' brother and chop off his head without much comment, i think it is one verse and each of the apostles other than John dies a violent death as a martyr.

If you look at the life of Paul and his words, though, it makes sense. Paul was a filthy murderer before Jesus and was so grateful to be saved from the punishment he deserved that he believed that his life belonged to Jesus completely to be used as He wished.

He had met the Risen Jesus so he knew that the message was true and he also had seen heaven so he knew that his destination was clear. So Paul was able to look on a world that was brutal and nasty and utterly pagan and where the people he loved were being killed for proclaiming the Gospel and say like Job,

“Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither. The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”

and

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.…

We think death is bad, but Paul was torn as he wanted to die and be with the Lord in boundless joy.

So as for Charleston, we are in a short attention span very jaded world and I don't know if anyone came to Christ as a result, but the men and ladies who died are in the presence of the Lord experiencing a joy that we cannot even fathom while their family members were broadcasting the message of the Gospel to millions through that bail hearing and their love and forgiveness of the perp. Those that died were given their reward and those that lived preached Christ and Him crucified.

 

[T-Man]

Question: What can a church do to protect congregation during services. During a conversation with elders about this issue How can a church legally protest in event of an attack if no members have a w & C permit how can this be done. Are churches allowed to have armed members in church during services. What kind of training should be done ? Pistol or shotgun, personal defense classes. Where do churches legally stand or what is the law on self protection in the church setting. Is there any case law on churches having someone teach members self defense with firearms, what type to use, Any ideas ? Maybe someone can guide me to a lawyer or someone versed in this issue. Just what is the law concerning church protection ? The time to prepare is now but what is legal. I know a lot of questions but need some help or a boot in the right direction. Thanks

Blueblood -- When I see the craziness of this world, it is easy for me to get worked up and try to take all sorts of steps to try to control the situation. I try to start off by remembering that the Lord was not surprised by Charleston and is still on His Throne ruling over all His Creation. We should always be wise, but never move from a position of fear.

So in a similar situation, I prayed about being armed myself or asking "staff" to be armed and the Lord told me no or at least not yet. Doesn't mean that is the answer for everyone, but that was mine.

If you are a stand alone church building or a leased property and the owner or management personnel, maybe elders or staff are willing check out the laws that cover carrying a firearm at a business.

If no one has training with pistols, get some before doing anything as the liability aspect is always there and there are lots of industry partners here in that section who can be very helpful in that regard.

In my old church there were a couple of current and former police officers and an FBI guy who simply came with their off duty weapons. Any police officers in your congregation?

 

[clandestine]

I treat a church the same way I would a business. If they don't have armed security and refuse to allow me to carry, I don't go.

 

[pitpawten]

This is one of those topics that has lots of things to consider, and ends up being a very personal decision between you and God.

* God can protect anyone and stop anyone intent on violence, but he does not always do so.
* God has given us freedoms in this country to own guns
* There is no shame in martyrdom (rather a great honor in an eternal sense)
* We are charged with taking care of our family (wife and kids)
* Someone killed in self-defense might be deprived of an opportunity to believe

There are counter-points to each of these, and none of them alone are a sole deciding factor.

Our church went through this discussion recently, and even among leadership there were just as many opinions/views as there were participants.

My (very abstract) stance is "Be prepared, so you have options. Trust that the Lord will lead when the time comes."

 

[EL1227]

The Armor of God

Ephesians 6:10-18

Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

And a concealed firearm that's ONLY known between you and the Lord.

 

[babalou]

This!!

I looked for the phase god helps those who helps themeselves and found it is not a bible phrase but I did find something from the sanskrit that even though it isnt christian, has the ring of truth

"to those who think if we pray to god, god will come and deliver us;
to those who think god is going to deliver us only if we believe in this or that form of god (whether indian or not);

to them - god will not come down and stand on your doorstep like a guard, will not be with you all the time like a body guard. while faith is important, it is the intelligence that god gives along with other skills that intelligence/mind can use, that ultimately saves us."

 

[jimbobborg]

Some churches in Maryland apparently hire security during their services. One of the guys I work with was talking about it.

 

[Muleskinner]

This is one of those cases where it's better to ask forgiveness rather than permission...

 

[Sub Vet]

It is not uncommon to have armed guards at synagogues especially during important holidays. You might try reaching out to some nearby synagogues and see how they handle it.

 

[DanGuy48]

If someone wanted to carry in a church, wouldn't it be OK if they got approval from the pastor, or does that have to go all the way up the chain of command?

 

[jbrown50]

I've been the security ministry leader for my church for 22 years now. Every now and then someone will bring up the question "why church security?" Here's a couple of the scriptures I give them and then let the spirit guide them further.

1 Chronicles 9: 21 - 24 KJV

21) And Zechariah the son of Meshelemiah was porter of the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

22) All these which were chosen to be porters in the gates were two hundred and twelve. These were reckoned by their genealogy in their villages, whom David and Samuel the seer did ordain in their set office.

23) So they and their children had the oversight of the gates of the house of the Lord, namely, the house of the tabernacle, by wards.

24) In four quarters were the porters, toward the east, west, north, and south.


Nehemiah 4: 10 - 23 KJV

10) And Judah said, The strength of the bearers of burdens is decayed, and there is much rubbish; so that we are not able to build the wall.

11) And our adversaries said, They shall not know, neither see, till we come in the midst among them, and slay them, and cause the work to cease.

12) And it came to pass, that when the Jews which dwelt by them came, they said unto us ten times, From all places whence ye shall return unto us they will be upon you.

13) Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows.

14) And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses.

15) And it came to pass, when our enemies heard that it was known unto us, and God had brought their counsel to nought, that we returned all of us to the wall, every one unto his work.

16) And it came to pass from that time forth, that the half of my servants wrought in the work, and the other half of them held both the spears, the shields, and the bows, and the habergeons; and the rulers were behind all the house of Judah.

17) They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon.

18) For the builders, every one had his sword girded by his side, and so builded. And he that sounded the trumpet was by me.

19) And I said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, The work is great and large, and we are separated upon the wall, one far from another.

20) In what place therefore ye hear the sound of the trumpet, resort ye thither unto us: our God shall fight for us.

21) So we laboured in the work: and half of them held the spears from the rising of the morning till the stars appeared.

22) Likewise at the same time said I unto the people, Let every one with his servant lodge within Jerusalem, that in the night they may be a guard to us, and labour on the day.

23) So neither I, nor my brethren, nor my servants, nor the men of the guard which followed me, none of us put off our clothes, saving that every one put them off for washing

 

[Alea Jacta Est]

It is not uncommon to have armed guards at synagogues especially during important holidays. You might try reaching out to some nearby synagogues and see how they handle it.

You won't be disappointed then, I hope, when you find they may be reluctant to share their TTP with you...

 

[Alea Jacta Est]

You won't be disappointed then, I hope, when you find they may be reluctant to share their TTP with you...

A lot of great biblical quotes. Thank you.

As mentioned, a community decision, possibly trumped by a personal decision.

Between you and your version of the good Lord.

 

[SCDoGo]

I looked for the phase god helps those who helps themeselves and found it is not a bible phrase but I did find something from the sanskrit that even though it isnt christian, has the ring of truth

You would find a similar sentiment in James 2:14-26, i.e. "faith without works is dead."

 

[Stoveman]

Another amazing distinction between Free America and this God forsaken cesspool we live in - the Sunday after Charleston in the church my parents attend (Clarksville, TN) the pastor came out and told the congregation that if they had been carrying in church to continue and if you hadn't been, please do.

 

[Alea Jacta Est]

Another amazing distinction between Free America and this God forsaken cesspool we live in - the Sunday after Charleston in the church my parents attend (Clarksville, TN) the pastor came out and told the congregation that if they had been carrying in church to continue and if you hadn't been, please do.

That's awesome. Makes me want to hear a couple of his sermons.

 

[WeaponsCollector]

We can learn a lot from the 2007 New Life church shooting in Colorado.
Jeanne Assam had a revolver in her purse when a homicidal nutcase with an AK47 started shooting.
She stopped him dead in his tracks and saved many lives.

 

[Stoveman]

That's awesome. Makes me want to hear a couple of his sermons.

I've heard a couple of his sermons, this was probably his best.......

He's really good for the first 30 minutes and then spends the next 20 going over the first 30.....

 

[Muleskinner]

It is not uncommon to have armed guards at synagogues especially during important holidays. You might try reaching out to some nearby synagogues and see how they handle it.

Back in the late 80s and early 90 I worked with BCoPD in Pikesville we provided on duty protection for Synagogues during the high holy days. Most now have armed members. There are even a few Rabbis that pack...

 

[T-Man]

Another amazing distinction between Free America and this God forsaken cesspool we live in - the Sunday after Charleston in the church my parents attend (Clarksville, TN) the pastor came out and told the congregation that if they had been carrying in church to continue and if you hadn't been, please do.

That's awesome. Makes me want to hear a couple of his sermons.

Made me think of a pastor that I have heard a bunch of times from Bangor Maine -- Ken Graves, http://www.ccbangor.org/.

Preaches each sunday with a glock on his hip open carried -- calls it his glock for his flock.

Awesome Bible teacher, hunter, former lumberjack, does MMA fighting in his church as a ministry and loves Jesus:

This was a men's conference I was at a few years ago -- the cadence is awesome live.

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