Castle doctrine question

[Twanger]

Scenario: alarm goes off in the middle of the night. You tell your wife to call the cops as you grab your piece and go downstairs to investigate. You bump into a perp with a knife and you pull the gun and order them to freeze and drop the weapon. The perp freezes and drops the weapon.

Now you have a very tricky situation on your hands…

Is it lawful to hold a criminal at gunpoint that broke into your home until the cops arrive?

Corollary question…

What if they try to get away? Can you then legally shoot them in the back to keep them from getting away?

(After reading Andrew Branca's "The Law of Self Defense" my understanding is that no, you cannot shoot them in the back while trying to escape. Sooooo… holding a gun on a perp is essentially an empty threat… what good is it trying to hold them at gunpoint when they can legally just turn and walk away, and you’ll be found guilty of Murder-1 if you shoot them?)

So as any good gun owner would do, I’m trying to think through these things in the rational light of day, instead of waiting until it’s 3am and I’m woken out of a deep sleep.

 

[Traveler]

Not sure if serious.

Shoot someone in the back, go to jail. Tell em to get face down on the floor. Make sure there is no second person you don't know about.

Most people should not even be moving around the house. You need training to do that without getting killed.

Self defense only, if your life is in jeopardy. This isn't Tombstone AZ.

 

[MEGARMS]

Good rule of thumb. Don't shoot anyone unless the circumstances are so dire that you feel your life, or the lives of your family members are in danger. Holding someone at gun point is also a pretty bad idea (IMO). Again, if your life is in danger shoot them. If it is not, get a good mental picture/description and tell them to get lost.

 

[webb297]

What would probably happen in real life is that while you are concentrating on holding "the perp" at gunpoint, bad guy number 2 whacks you over the head with a lamp, and now you and your family is in real danger.

In a situation like this you gather your family in one place that you can cover with your firearm, lock the door and wait for the polices arrival.

Bad guy tries to come through the door, situation changes. But now you know where all people you are responsible for are, and where the bad guy(s) are exactly, and you can defend yourself with your firearm because him coming through the door would put any reasonable person in fear for their lives.

 

[Twanger]

Definitely a serious question and your answers are basically what I thought.

So the idea that you could "hold 'em at gunpoint until the cops arrive" is essentially an empty threat. They could just turn and walk away, becoming somebody else's problem tomorrow night. Wonderful.

Order them to get on the floor!? Right. If they can simply turn and walk away what makes you think they are going to lay face down on the floor?

 

[BradMacc82]

Order them to get on the floor!? Right. If they can simply turn and walk away what makes you think they are going to lay face down on the floor?

Fear.

My brother and I HAVE had to hold someone at gunpoint until Fairfax Co. showed up to handle/arrest the individual. Guy wasn't too compliant until he saw the muzzle of an AK-patterned rifle leveled at his chest from one angle, and a rifle muzzle from another.

 

[matt]

Fear.

My brother and I HAVE had to hold someone at gunpoint until Fairfax Co. showed up to handle/arrest the individual. Guy wasn't too compliant until he saw the muzzle of an AK-patterned rifle leveled at his chest from one angle, and a rifle muzzle from another.

But being that turning away and running isn't as much of an option when it's coming from multiple directions- which way to turn.... sh!t!

 

[Gryphon]

Scenario: alarm goes off in the middle of the night. You tell your wife to call the cops as you grab your piece and go downstairs to investigate. You bump into a perp with a knife AND SHOOT HIM and order HIM to freeze and drop the weapon OR YOU WILL SHOOT HIM AGAIN.

WAIT FOR LEO TO ARRIVE, ASSERT SELF-DEFNSE INSIDE YOUR HOME AND STFU UNTIL YOU HAVE A LAWYER.

Bump into a perp with a knife in your dark living room with your wife right upstairs? FIFY

 

[BigDaddy]

If he's not standing on my oriental rug, in front of the Picasso, then I didn't see him drop the knife. Too many witnesses in Baltimore wind up dead before the trial. That won't be me.

 

[BradMacc82]

But being that turning away and running isn't as much of an option when it's coming from multiple directions- which way to turn.... sh!t!

Granted, we didn't give him much choice but to comply due to the situation and lay-out of the townhouse.

In a diff't scenario, I wouldn't have lost any sleep if he decided to turn tail and run out of the house. Would've been able to give a solid description to LE, and let them do their job.

I don't take the thought of having to fire upon someone lightly. If I have to, fine. But in some situations, I'm completely ok with not having to fire at someone.

 

[matt]

I don't take the thought of having to fire upon someone lightly. If I have to, fine. But in some situations, I'm completely ok with not having to fire at someone.

I would hope most firearm owners feel this way.

 

[Blaster229]

I love scenarios!! :-)
Stay in your room if it's just you and the wife.
Dial 911 as you both get into your armed position of advantage in the room facing the fatal funnel (door).
Wait.
Let guy leave as the cops show up, let them fight him.
Dispatch will tell you cops are walking up the stairs, put your weapon down.
You live and don't get put through the wringer in court.

#2 guy comes through door(fatal funnel) and you stop his threat.

Get back to work in a few days after you relaxed a bit.

 

[BradMacc82]

My brother screwed up on that, he left to investigate.

I happened to be in my bedroom when I heard the commotion.

 

[BradMacc82]

View attachment 127552


Going from memory.

 

[Twanger]

Seems like sound advice here.
Thank you all for taking this question seriously.

Blaster - If the alarm trips there's always the question of uncertainty ... is it an unannounced son or daughter coming into the house? A grandchild? The desire to "take a peek" before calling the cops has got to be very strong. Why cause a big fuss with the police if you don't have to?

Three of the four kids are police officers and know very well that I have quick access to a gun in the house. It's extremely unlikely that they would come in unannounced. That said, there's always that 1% chance...

Ghads.

Anyway, this dialog has helped me, and more opinions are certainly welcome.

 

[BradMacc82]

If nothing else, calling the cops out on a false alarm, gives you a good estimate on their response time if something ever happens and you really do need them there.

 

[Blaster229]

Seems like sound advice here.
Thank you all for taking this question seriously.

Blaster - If the alarm trips there's always the question of uncertainty ... is it an unannounced son or daughter coming into the house? A grandchild? The desire to "take a peek" before calling the cops has got to be very strong. Why cause a big fuss with the police if you don't have to?

Three of the four kids are police officers and know very well that I have quick access to a gun in the house. It's extremely unlikely that they would come in unannounced. That said, there's always that 1% chance...

Ghads.

Anyway, this dialog has helped me, and more opinions are certainly welcome.

You have 3 working police aged children living in the house with you?

In your scenario you had the wife call before you went to investigate.
However, if someone is coming in that late, then they are old enough to know how to 1. turn it off and 2. probably yell up to let you know it was them.

I am not an alarm fan.

 

[j_h_smith]

I think this scenario actually played out some years ago. If I remember correctly, once you leave the bedroom, you are no long covered by Castle Defense. You are not required to retreat, but going out from the bedroom to confront the perp is a big no-no.

Jim Smith

 

[matt]

I think this scenario actually played out some years ago. If I remember correctly, once you leave the bedroom, you are no long covered by Castle Defense. You are not required to retreat, but going out from the bedroom to confront the perp is a big no-no.

Jim Smith

I don't think this is accurate. I think it's safe to say- you're going to be in a ton of poop if the intruder(s) have entry hole(s) in their back unless you have a very good reason (child's room in that direction, etc.) That being said- I have insurance sufficient for my property, and I'll stick with staying put (assuming my family is safely (relatively) with me) and keeping the funnel the option, should I need it.

 

[iobidder]

I love scenarios!! :-)
Stay in your room if it's just you and the wife.
Dial 911 as you both get into your armed position of advantage in the room facing the fatal funnel (door).
Wait.
Let guy leave as the cops show up, let them fight him.
Dispatch will tell you cops are walking up the stairs, put your weapon down.
You live and don't get put through the wringer in court.

#2 guy comes through door(fatal funnel) and you stop his threat.

Get back to work in a few days after you relaxed a bit.

that makes way too much sense, I'd rather go investigate