Cast SWC Boolits in .45 acp - Need Some Input

[j8064]

This is an issue I put on the back burner last spring. With winter now making it too cold to get to the range, it's time to do some reloading housekeeping:

I have ~ 40 rounds built with 5.5 grs of Unique behind 200 gr swc boolits cast from this Lee mold: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/66...diameter-200-grain-tumble-lube-semi-wadcutter. Nice boolits with good reviews for 1911's and other semi-autos. Unfortunately none of my semi-auto guns will feed or chamber my rounds -> including my Hi-Points. I've learned thru experience, if a HP won't eat it, it ain't edible. I've since moved on to other bullet styles in my loads that work well. Still have to deal with housekeeping on these rounds tho.

My thinking is the boolit is not seated deeply enough to feed. COAL in the pic is 1.185. My old Lyman manual says 1.161 is OK for their recipe using a similar boolit - and the charge is on the low end of their recipe. But I've read other info on swc min COAL to be much higher. There are always pressure concerns with boolits seated too deeply - especially on .45 acp.

So, I can either give up and pull the boolits, or I can seat them a little deeper and try them one more time. Still there's something about "hold my beer and watch this" moments that just doesn't appeal to me...

That's long way to get to my questions, but:
- Anybody loading this Lee boolit in .45 acp's?
- What's your COAL?
- What powder? Charge?
- Input on THESE rounds?
- Other input?

 

[Deep Creek Rock]

I dont shoot that bullet - but use Lee's 230 grn LRN, with the same tumble bands. The Lee molds seem to have that prominent shoulder on the bullet. In my 230 grn LRN, the shoulder is barely sticking out of the case when seated to 1.265". To me there looks to be alot of shoulder on that bullet sticking out of the case. In your High Points - can you field strip the weapon to the point where the barrel comes out of it? I would try to plunk test your rounds, and see if they chamber freely. Make a dummy round thats not crimped, and slowly seat the bullet deeper until it plunks freely, and falls to proper chamber level- measure the COL, and see if its still within specs.

If it were me I would not seat too deep on that style bullet with that shoulder, as it probably will turn in when you crimp if the shoulder is below the mouth.

Also is that bullet dropping at .452" from the mold? I usally run my cast 45 through Lee's sizer die, even though they state you dont have to, to err on the safe side. I really wish Lee would put more data with there molds- especially load data period.

 

[Deep Creek Rock]

If you decide to give up on that bullet mold, let me know. I was actually contemplating picking up that mold to try in my 1911. If the price is fair enough, Ill take it off your hands.

 

[helg]

I load Lee 452-200-SWC-TL boolits using the .947 rule. The loads look too short. However, I have no problems with feeding, leading, and accuracy.

My loads with that size, and 700X are 4.9gr (Lee .71cc disk, comfortable) and 5.1gr (Lee .76 disk, close to max, use care).

 

[Deep Creek Rock]

I load Lee 452-200-SWC-TL boolits using the .947 rule. The loads look too short. However, I have no problems with feeding and accuracy.

I dont think the bullet in your pic is a TL. The TL stands for tumble lube - which is the bullet j8064 has on his pic. The one you have looks like the 452-200SWC, with just 2 bands. That bullet is actually longer then the TL version, and has a more flatter point then the one j8064 has.

You have to bear in mind that the shoulder on those Lee bullets is the start of the bearing surface, and not a taper like on most other bullets. The shoulder is what rides the bore. The tips will vary in length by both brand, and design.

 

[j8064]

I dont shoot that bullet - but use Lee's 230 grn LRN, with the same tumble bands. The Lee molds seem to have that prominent shoulder on the bullet. In my 230 grn LRN, the shoulder is barely sticking out of the case when seated to 1.265". To me there looks to be alot of shoulder on that bullet sticking out of the case. In your High Points - can you field strip the weapon to the point where the barrel comes out of it? I would try to plunk test your rounds, and see if they chamber freely. Make a dummy round thats not crimped, and slowly seat the bullet deeper until it plunks freely, and falls to proper chamber level- measure the COL, and see if its still within specs.

If it were me I would not seat too deep on that style bullet with that shoulder, as it probably will turn in when you crimp if the shoulder is below the mouth.

Also is that bullet dropping at .452" from the mold? I usally run my cast 45 through Lee's sizer die, even though they state you dont have to, to err on the safe side. I really wish Lee would put more data with there molds- especially load data period.

I'm inclined to agree there's too much shoulder outside the case mouth. The rounds chamber, but the lip on the bullet may be what's getting hung up when feeding. Like I said, the OAL is 1.185. The Lyman data in one of my books says 1.161 for their recipe. Different slug, but very very similar design. The extra seating depth should put the shoulder just outside the mouth. With the charge barely above starting I don't really think there'll be a problem. Only one way to find out for sure.

I recently got the same 230 mold you have. No issues with feeding RN. Those are seated to the shoulder. All my cast 45's are run through a .452 sizing die and taper crimped.

If you decide to give up on that bullet mold, let me know. I was actually contemplating picking up that mold to try in my 1911. If the price is fair enough, Ill take it off your hands.

Don't know if I'm ready to give up yet. But you're certainly welcome to borrow the mold if you want to try some of the boolits it makes.

 

[helg]

I dont think the bullet in your pic is a TL.

You are right. Moreover, the picture is not mine, google "45 acp 947" to see it on the Internet. I used it for reference - to show what is the .947 rule. It is not easy to deduct the .947 rule from the SAAMI 45ACP chamber dimensions:

 

[Deep Creek Rock]

I guess we should have asked what sort of feed problem you were getting. If they are getting hung up at the feed ramp - I would suspect, that the feed ramp contour, may not like that style bullet. If they chamber, but wont go fully forward - then Id suspect a seating depth issue - or not enough crimp. Im not sure what dies you are using (should have asked that!), or how you taper crimp. I personally prefer to crimp and seat in separate steps, as opposed to crimping and seating in one action. But I am also not loading on a progressive, where you may have to crimp & seat together.

I use RCBS 3 die carbide, and bought the Lee factory crimp die, to do my crimping. That Lee factory crimp die, works really good, it does a partial resizing when you draw the case out of the die, to help ensure it feeds. I only use a half a turn on the Lee Crimp die- which is supposed to be a "light crimp" and have had no issues.

I put a pic of the 230 grains Ive been using with a loaded round, you can see very little shoulder showing above the case mouth. That COL is 1.265" and feeds perfect in my 1911. Id be willing to bet that for your Lee mold, its one of those you have to seat a bit deeper. If you worried about pressure, drop your powder charge and work up again with the new COL.

 

[dj_in_md]

I've tried using the same bullet you mentioned and had trouble feeding until I went with the Lee factory crimp die. Pistol is a RIA.

 

[GUNGUY45]

Try going a bit shorter on your oal. there should be very little shoulder on a SWC.
Also what mags are you using?

The feed lips need to be made for SWC bullets. Mags designed for "ball" may or may not work.
SWC mags allow the round to enter the chamber at the proper angle.
Don't mess with the feed ramp.

 

[j8064]

Let's go back to the basic problem: Feeding. My test rounds seemed to hang up on the feed ramps of both a RIA 1911 and a Hi-Point JHP45. Both pistols will feed RN bullets of any flavor almost perfectly. Heck, the HP will eat darn near anything.

Test rounds were loaded with a Lee 4-die set on a single stage press. Boolits were seated with the seating die and final crimp done with the factory crimp die. The same procedure as all my other .45 acp loads using different projectiles. Everything else I load cycles and fires perfectly. The difference? The boolits.

I'm very cautious when it comes to deep seating when proving loads - especially in rounds like 9mm, 40 s&w & 45 acp. That's safety due diligence. Before I go cramming a boolit deeply into a case, I want to know exactly what it's going to do when fired. Methinks I've been too timid with the test rounds. As helg says in his post, swc loads maybe look "too short" when you haven't loaded them before.

I don't have data on all the "in-between" seating depths I tried, but below is a pic of the issues' progression.
- First seating of boolits: 1.224 = too long to feed.
- After a few tries: 1.178 = still too long to feed.
- Today I made a dummy round and seated it to 1.161 (Lyman data I mentioned earlier). It put the boolit shoulder barely above the case mouth and feeds and cycles in both pistols. Hmmmm...maybe progress?

There's a minimal charge of Unique in the test rounds. My bet is the deeper seating will cycle and fire without an issue. I almost fired one out back earlier, but too many neighbors around tonight.

We all learn from these discussions. Your input is appreciated! Of course I still have some Carcano test rounds I haven't tried yet, some rounds to prove in a Turk mauser and there's always the elusive M1895 Nagant load I've been working on. But those are all 'nother Oprah's.

Geez, it's always something...!! But that's another reason we reload.

 

[Deep Creek Rock]

Let us know what happens.

Today is a gusty windy day in Garrett Co - let them rounds rip, the wind will muffle the sound, lol.

 

[Kinbote]

I used to use that Lee .45 cal 200gr TL style, back in the 90's. I think they were called micro-grooves. I used that style in 9mm without much problem, and I liked it because I could cast them, shake them with some lube and load them, but I had the same trouble with them getting stuck on the feed ramp. The only thing that helped was lubing them with a bit less Alox; if you put just enough to get a gold tint they will feed better. Your bullets have brown clumps like mine used to before I cut back on lube, and it is very viscous, so they hit the feed ramp and stick, especially once you get 50 rds or so through the gun and the Alox residue from each bullet feeding and the powder fouling start to build up on the ramp.

Less lube will reduce the sticking, but I finally got tired of it and went back to the Lyman 200 gr HG style. You have to size and lube them separately, but they never jam up and don't leave Alox on the ramp. They are also noticeably more accurate for me than micro-groove designs.

The roundnose versions have less area hitting the feed ramp than a flat-nose SWC will, and the 9mm RN have even a smaller area contacting the ramp than a .45, which is why I think my 9mm microgroove bullets have fed well. If you are set on using Alox/tumble lubing in your .45, then a RN would be the best profile as far as reliability, and you could try using a minimal amount of Alox in your tumbling.

 

[j8064]

What Kinbote says makes sense. I shoot a lot of home cast boolits lubed with alox and clean my guns regularly. Alox buildup hasn't been an issue.

After checking to see what neighbors were around I went ahead and tried a few test rounds out back this morning. I seated some down to 1.161 like in the pic above. Sure enough they all fed and fired perfectly, the gun didn't blow up and I still have all my fingers. They felt a little more snappy than rn bullets, but the cases were clean and primers were normal. Don't know about accuracy yet, but they all dug holes in the snow.

That's better than I fared with my .268 Carcano test rounds. I'll post results of that challenge on another thread.

Thanks for everyone's input!

 

[Melnic]

question, what ever happened to this?
Did you continue to use the cast bullets or drop it in favor of something else?